Interview with Morra Aarons Mele, Podcast Host and Author of "The Anxious Achiever"

📺 Welcome to Best Seller TV, where we bring you groundbreaking conversations with top authors who are shaping the literary landscape. In this exclusive episode, we're thrilled to host Morra Aarons Mele, a remarkable podcast host and the brilliant author of "The Anxious Achiever."

📚 Morra Aarons Mele is a trailblazer in exploring the intersection of mental health, anxiety, and high-achieving professionals. In this interview, we dive deep into the compelling insights and stories from "The Anxious Achiever" to understand how we can navigate the pressures of success while maintaining our well-being.

🌟 In this illuminating conversation, we'll delve into:

🔹 Morra's personal journey and the motivation behind writing "The Anxious Achiever."
🔹 The prevalent issue of anxiety in the workplace and its impact on high-achievers.
🔹 Strategies and tools to effectively manage anxiety while pursuing professional success.
🔹 Real-life stories of individuals who have conquered anxiety to achieve their goals.
🔹 Practical advice for creating a more empathetic and supportive work environment.

Morra Aarons Mele's book "The Anxious Achiever" is a game-changer for those striving to excel while dealing with anxiety. This interview is a must-watch for anyone seeking a healthier, more sustainable path to achievement.

📖 Get ready to gain invaluable insights, discover strategies for well-being, and embrace a new approach to success. Be sure to like this video, subscribe to Best Seller TV, and ring the notification bell to stay updated with our engaging author interviews and discussions.

📌 Connect with Morra Aarons Mele:
Book: https://amzn.to/48SylJ2

Join us for this eye-opening conversation as we explore the crucial intersection of achievement and mental health. Thank you for being a part of the Best Seller TV community! 🚀

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Rhett Power and Cynthia Johnson, both accomplished authors, entrepreneurs, and speakers, co-host Best Seller TV, interviewing fellow authors about their nonfiction books. With their expertise and engaging style, they create insightful and captivating conversations. Rhett's dynamic charisma and Cynthia's thoughtful approach make for a winning combination beyond mere promotion, offering viewers a deep dive into authors' minds.

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Transcript

Unknown: 0:00

Cynthia.

Cynthia Johnson: 0:11

Hello everyone, and welcome to Best Seller TV. I am your host, Cynthia Johnson, and I am joined by another amazing author. We have Maura Aaron's mealy. Mora is self proclaimed, extremely anxious overachiever. She's passionate about helping others understand their anxiety and using it as their superpower. She hosts a podcast, the anxious overachiever for LinkedIn, and is the author of the books the anxious, anxious achiever and hiding in the bathroom, how to get out there when you'd rather stay home. I hear that she's also the founder of an award winning social impact agency, women online, which was sold in 2021 and before starting her own business, Maura worked in digital marketing and politics, helping Hillary Clinton log on for her first online chat and founding the Digital Public Affairs team at Edelman. Wow. Welcome Maura. Thank you so much for being here.

Unknown: 1:15

It's great to be here.

Cynthia Johnson: 1:17

Your book title really spoke to me, and I, honestly, I would love to start there with both your first book, which is the anxious I'm sorry, how do you hiding in the bathroom, which I think many of us out there have had that experience, and then your second book, which is the anxious achiever. How did you come up with those titles?

Unknown: 1:45

I just did. I'm, you know, I'm a I'm a Brander, and have spent many years trying to sell things to people. So I guess I just used it on myself. But, but really, I mean, both titles came out of real, true experiences that I have, but also that I learned millions of other people have, right? So my I always say that that my specialty is really, is saying things that other people don't in a business context, and really being open and honest about a lot of the emotional traits and personality traits that we show up with at work.

Cynthia Johnson: 2:30

And then, you know, I know we're here first to talk about the new book. But hiding in the bathroom is, is such a like, a very we we will, like, I can picture myself in these moments. And I'm curious if Did you have a moment when you thought I'm going to write a book and and where? Where were you? When did it? When did it come to you that this had to be the book you write?

Unknown: 2:54

Oh no, it was a podcast first, actually, so I sorry. Oh my gosh, I don't like you. But like, at the end of a day of zooms, I am just like, oh yeah,

Cynthia Johnson: 3:04

especially,

Unknown: 3:05

I need yoga. So I am part of a women's entrepreneur community, and we have a very active email list. And, you know, I this was way pre pandemic, so this would have been in probably 2014 I just was reflecting on my travels as an anxious introvert, and the fact that I was always going to conferences and I was always hiding in the bathroom, and I just wrote to my list, do you ever find yourself hiding in the bathroom at professional conferences? And the response, like, to your point, it was just like, oh, oh my god. Like To this day, I have friends who text me photos of themselves hiding in bathrooms and and a producer for Forbes was on the list, and she's like, Hey, we're launching a Podcast Network. We think this is a great idea for a podcast, so I got to play in the podcast, but I then pitched it as a book, because I really, really wanted to write a book for people like me who are super introverted, have quite a bit of social anxiety, but are also really ambitious and entrepreneurial and really want to build really interesting careers. How do we market ourselves in a world that is so focused on extroversion, especially in the context of entrepreneurship. So that was the quest for the anxious achiever. I'm sorry for hiding in the bathroom.

Cynthia Johnson: 4:34

In the bathroom, that's, I mean, it's so this all spurred out of what as a question like, is, what an incredible feedback loop you've been able to create, right? And as is someone who shows up, because I've put you know, you push yourself to and then all of a sudden, everyone wants you to be the person that shows up. It's like, that's panic attack. And. And to me, that also is the anxious achiever. So step one, get out of the bathroom. How did anxious achiever come about?

Unknown: 5:11

Very similarly, you know, I have been talking about my own battle with anxiety for a long time now. I actually I give my first keynote about it in 20 I think it was 2012 at Brown University, my alma mater, and I shared my experience being a brown and, you know, being extremely anxious and extremely depressed, and I got a standing ovation. This was a long time ago, like we didn't talk about stuff like that, but I was just really honest. And I think all the people in the audience who had been so mentored and like, told, like, the world is your oyster. You can do it. And I was kind of like, well, maybe, but you might have some really challenging times, you know, along the way, I think there was a sense of relief. And so I would always talk about anxiety, and as I was promoting hiding in the bathroom, there's a lot about anxiety in there, and I would talk about it, and people, you know, it was just like, again, that sense of relief, like, maybe you've seen me, maybe I'm not alone. And so I pitched the anxious achiever also as a podcast. I love podcasting to really explore the stories of leaders in business who manage anxiety disorders and other mental health challenges, because these are stories that we don't hear enough, and it's really important in a business setting that we normalize mental health.

Cynthia Johnson: 6:34

I agree. I my Chris is started. I'm I was running so like social media for for mental and behavioral health companies, before anybody wanted to talk about it. And I remember asking, how do you create community around these topics? And you know, there'd be, like, the CMO of Oreo being like, I have no idea. I talked about cookies and and definitely no one was talking about their own anxieties, right? You were always talking about other people, other or communities when you first approached the topic, was it freeing or anxiety, like bringing for someone out there, who's who's saying, I want to get this off my chest too. What would you suggest?

Unknown: 7:23

I think it's a really personal choice. And you know, even today, there's so much stigma around mental health, and you still hear a lot of that othering language, especially from leaders. They talk about other people's challenges, right, or my cousin or my sister or my daughter or my this, or my that? And it's not enough when I was feeling this way. But you know, that's a really personal decision. And you know, when I, when I advise people on on how to disclose or whether they want to disclose it, I ask them, first of all, what's your what's your purpose in doing this? Right? You know, it's very different if you're climbing in your career than if you're the boss, if you're climbing in your career, I think it's a much more serious decision, whether you're going to disclose a mental illness publicly or, you know, broadly throughout the company. I think disclosing it to your boss or HR is probably necessary so that you can get the help you need and work in the way that you need to. But it's a personal decision, because there is stigma. I really do encourage leaders, though, because again, if you've got the juice, if you've got influence, if people listen to you and you have a humanizing story to tell, it can do a lot of good.

Cynthia Johnson: 8:39

No, I mean, it's, you hear that all the time and and you, I think what, what's interesting is we're also starting to see it on other people a little bit. And I'm curious if, if you having advice, whether you're the you're the employer, or you're the colleague, or you just happen to be in the bathroom with that person who's in the corner, how do you approach people in a way that is more open and accepting and is helpful?

Unknown: 9:12

I mean, if you see someone struggling, it's just really nice to just be human, right? I mean, I think that so much of workplace mental health feels really scary and big, and, you know, people worry I can't be my team's therapist. I'm not a therapist. Like, I don't want to turn into everyone's therapist. Like, of course, you don't that's not your job, you know. And work is not a therapy, but we have such a hunger at work for connection, right? And we know this from all the research and companies could just make work a lot more mentally healthy by a you know, embracing some really common equity values, like, pay people fairly, treat them well, respect their time, respect their boundaries, allow them to create space between. And home and work, you know, all that good stuff. And then, you know, I think really encouraging a culture, and I'm not the first person to say this, where it's okay to be a little bit vulnerable, where, you know, leaders don't always have to know all the answers, right? Where giving space for a little bit of like wobbliness doesn't, you know, doesn't immediately make people think that you're not competent. And you know, most organizational cultures are really bad at that,

Cynthia Johnson: 10:41

and you're, most of them are, and partly because, you know, make my job easier, right? Um, your book, the anxious, the anxious achiever. You're the anxious overachiever. What? What? How would you define what that looks like?

Unknown: 11:00

I don't use the term overachiever, because that's a judgment, like I'm not here to Yeah, no,

Cynthia Johnson: 11:05

I took the from your bio as being anxious. You being the anxious over so I apologize.

Unknown: 11:12

Oh, I Yes,

Cynthia Johnson: 11:15

yes. But the Oh, the achiever, the anxious achiever, what? Who is that person?

Unknown: 11:21

Um, the anxious achiever is not a medical term, so it's a, definitely a term that I've invented after much research and hundreds and hundreds of interviews. You know, there's a lot of us out there who are very, very driven, right? We are always pushing ourselves. And whether we're entrepreneurs or we work at a nonprofit or we work in a big company, we're the ones who are revving up at 100% stay late. We're present. We're on task, and over time, we create a cycle where we get praised and rewarded for that achieving. And we think, oh, gosh, okay, well, the only way that I'm going to be praised and rewarded and worthy is if I keep doing this. So I better keep doing this. Or maybe we think, you know, bad things are going to happen if I slow down. We may operate from really old beliefs, you know, even from our childhood, that I'm going to get punished if I don't give 100% or I'm lazy and I have to work harder, or I'm going to lose everything I've worked so hard for if I slow down, right? We carry these messages and we keep going and we keep achieving, but it's almost as if we're powered by anxiety, we're motivated by anxiety, and it's complicated. I call it a double edged sword, because on the one hand, this makes us very special people, and it helps us achieve a lot. On the other hand, if it's unmanaged, if it's untreated, it can really, really, you know, make us burnt out exhausted. It can take a toll on our relationships, on our family, on the people we work with, on our joy. And so it's really about understanding the role that anxiety plays in your work life, and asking yourself the question, is this serving me? Is this how I want to keep going?

Cynthia Johnson: 13:30

You? You went through all these interviews. You said, you said, Did you say hundreds? Did I hear hundreds? Hundreds? Yeah. Were there any, was there anything that was surprising that you didn't expect, or things that came out of these interviews that were kind of like, Oh man, I wish the world knew more about this.

Unknown: 13:54

What I want the world to know and what I'm really obsessed with, because I interview people who have anxiety disorders. I interview people who have bipolar disorder, who have depression, who have ADHD, who are autistic, who have OCD. Is that when you have a really different brain, you probably need to work differently. And how you work doesn't look like how other people work. And there are probably some things that you're really, really bad at, that other people might not be so bad at. On the other hand, there are probably some things that you are gifted at, that you are amazing at, and the task for all of us is to create a life where we're supported and build infrastructure and treatment and understanding around. Around what are really, really challenging for us, our vulnerable sides, and the things we just simply cannot do, and then get to really play to our strengths. And you know, there's, there's a there's a lot of research literature around this, data on entrepreneurs and mental illness and disorders. But I just, I'm fascinated by the myriad ways that neurodivergent people I've talked to have created work lives. You know they would blow your mind,

Cynthia Johnson: 15:32

what? And in the in the book, and also in your own life, like, what? What are some things that you've done like to address and to create yours, your perfect work life balance.

Unknown: 15:43

There's no work life balance. That's a lie.

Cynthia Johnson: 15:46

No good because honestly, thank you. Like, feel like that's the buzzword of the last 10 years, or buzzwords. But so what have you done, I guess, to it to achieve, achieve, just whatever it is that, like, makes, like, that's the setup in your in your work, and the setup, you know? What do you do? You avoid certain things. You just lay it out on the table. Like, hey, I don't do this, but I'm really good over here.

Unknown: 16:19

Yeah. I mean, I love the term work life fit. So one of my mentors is Callie Yost, and she's an expert on workplace flexibility and redesign, and she talks about fit. And the cool thing about work life fit is it's like snowflakes. We all have a different work life fit. And so that's really important, whether you're neurodivergent or you have anxiety or not, like your work life fit might be different. I always laugh because I have three kids, and when I had my babies, people sort of would assume that I would step back from work or that my mind would be elsewhere. And I was like, No, I love working. Like, I love being a mom, but like, work is really, really important to me, and my kids are annoying, especially when they were toddlers, like I'm happy to be at work. And it felt like very weird and anti cultural to say that, but that's my work life fit. And so we all have different ones. I think I, when I was 30 years old, left corporate America because I just couldn't do it. I was just bad at it. Not that I was bad at my job. I'm good at my job. I was a marketer and a political consultant. It's that I couldn't do office politics. I couldn't show up every day. I couldn't sit there for 10 hours and interact with other people and be in meetings and just do all the things that seem so typical for an office job, I couldn't do it. I kept quitting or getting layered over or just getting depressed. And so I built a work life that was entrepreneurship for me, which allowed me to accommodate, like very unusual hours, the fact that I really can't sit still very well, the fact that I need a lot of alone time, the fact that I really love my team, but I also don't need to be with people every day, and the fact that my anxiety actually is really difficult and sometimes really gets in my way and and it's, it's, it's been awesome. And my first book, I think, in the bathroom, is a lot more about this topic, you know. But I think that, I think the thing to think about is, what is the level of interaction, stimulation, stress that I feel like I can handle on a given day. What are the things that I'm really good at that other people aren't? You know, I believe my anxiety has given me a ton of empathy and the ability to scan a room and read a room, and so I'm a great salesperson. I'm really good in a room. I

Cynthia Johnson: 19:04

Yeah, you're the work life fit. And you mentioned a little bit about the beginning of this discussion, that there's the leader and then there's the person that's climbing your career. It sounds like you also to make a choice at the corporate level, and I made a very similar choice. You did. Oh, I did. I did. I was part of an acquisition and ended up at a hospital company, corporate Hospital Center, when I went from like small team to mess massive team and fun expectations to, you know, I didn't even know what everything was a number, and I yeah, I left there the moment I ran. I ran and and what I thought was really interesting is the response, like, I. From people who aren't you scared? And I was like, No, I'm scared to death to stay like, I would rather run into the ocean and try to swim to the other side, I think. And you know, it's not as powerful of an emotion for for as many people, and I think that's why there's the differences in how and how we work. But being being brought in through an acquisition. I was gifted, given unusual circumstances and unusual privileges because I was contractually, you know, I couldn't quit. They couldn't find it was this very, you know, I came in sort of upper management. But I also noticed that that what you sort of, what you're describing to me, was this overlooking of people based on really lame things? Like, totally, like, Bob isn't in his chair. Enough. Like,

Unknown: 20:53

what do you think?

Cynthia Johnson: 20:54

Why do you notice? Like, what are you doing? And, yeah. And so is there a is there a different way? Like, I mean, these are tips for people who are in the situation you're in where you like, I have to like, I'm being overlooked. I need to leave or, you know, is it a different way to think about it? Because I know it's a lot, it can be a lot scarier in those moments. Yeah, yeah.

Unknown: 21:21

Yeah. I mean, I think it's really scary and and so for me, the question is, do I want to leave, or do I want to stay? And if the answer is, I want to stay, then you really have two choices. One is you can try to conform. And you know, sort of a hack to doing this is to really pay attention to and think about the values and the language that the company sees as important. And Carla Harris, she's great. She gives a lot of talk. She was an investment banker. She talks about this a lot, you know, if a big word in your company, you know, is, like, committed or strategic. You know, what are the executives who get that right do? And how can I show that I'm committed? Like, maybe commitment in this company means My butt is in that chair. Okay? Is this something that I'm willing to conform to, and if so, how can I take care of myself? And sometimes that means, like, how can I, like, emotionally disconnect from this? The other option is to ask for what you need. You know, is to say, I am valuable to this organization, but I work a little bit differently, and I think the pandemic has opened up this door for so many of us right working from home used to be seen as kind of a weird thing, and now it's like we all work from home. So can I ask for what I need do? I know what I need. Oh, well, I better know what I need do. I know how what I need maps to the values that the company assigns so that they don't think I'm slacking off. And if I had to make a compromise, what compromise would I make? And so, you know, I think with introverts, I get this question a lot. You know, Zoom really exhausts me. I'm on Zoom. I'm expected to be on camera all day long. What do I do? And first of all, my question to every company is like, where did you get the idea that everybody had to be on zoom all day long? It's ridiculous. Two, are there meetings again? I can go off campus. Can I build in workarounds? Because I deserve this. This is how I need to work. So I think really, really important is thinking, if I want to stay, can I conform, or can I ask for what I need? And if so, what do I need to make this job bearable and play to my strengths?

Cynthia Johnson: 24:02

Oh, you must get so many emails from people like this. I do you do? Yeah, it's on a more per, I guess, personal, selfish note, I'm gonna ask you also, then, what about you? Know, I found what I didn't expect is I don't do well in an office. Actually, not true. I don't do well not having a choice. So the moment, the moment you tell me I don't have an office, is the moment I want one and like, it's just this very psychological thing I go through when I when, when I first started my company, my employees who did not have to be in the office, they had a choice. I found got frustrated that I wasn't in the office. So then I started getting anxiety that like wasn't living their expectation and and I still think that's a big. Part, a part of it today. So you're an overachiever, let's say an overachieving entrepreneur, and then you start a business, and now you're anxious that you're employed. You're not doing the right thing for employees. Like, is there a way to navigate that? On the other side, I guess, is the question.

Unknown: 25:16

It's all about expectations. Mismatch of expectations makes us super anxious. Are my employees upset that I'm not in the office? Do they expect something from me that I'm not giving them? Right? I think part of the reason also why hybrid work is challenging is that we're unclear about expectations because we're not together, and so is my boss really happy? I mean, they sent me that slack, but, like, I don't know there wasn't a smiley emoji and the slack, and so I don't really know if they liked my work. Like, we're are, we're so unclear about expectations. And so what I recommend is basically over communicating, and, like filling that vacuum, because anxiety loves a vacuum, right? My boss wants to meet with me next Monday morning. First thing, am I getting laid off? They didn't really say much, and then email they just said, Can we have a meeting? Like you could be getting promoted, but if you're anxious, you feel like you're getting laid off, and there's a huge vacuum, and that anxiety just whooshes in. And so you could ask, you know, I mean, I think as leaders, we can sit and we can open up a dialog, because it is our job as leaders to make our employees feel cared for, heard, led, while also we're the boss and we get a lot of leeway. I tell, I trust me. I struggled at the same thing when I owned my business. I really like, I'm the kind of boss I trusted people so much I'd be like, I would want to disappear for days just do my own thing, and then I was like, Oh, more like you really should check in for for them, not because I was worried. And so, you know, I think that just again, creating expectations and maybe just saying to them, Hey guys, you know, I have this weird thing in my personality where I really value autonomy and flexibility. That's why I started this business. And just when I don't show up, it's not because of you. And let's build in some core hours and you can access me or something like that. Yeah, I totally I know how you feel. I felt the same way.

Cynthia Johnson: 27:39

Yes, because you go into it and you're thinking, look, I made it, and all of the things I was anxious about go away. No, they just changed. Oh, it's, it's, it's really great. And I, I feel like the the books that like knowing, like your bio, and then the books in the titles like, again, it shows this sort of transformation, kind of with you that I I find very relatable, because it's yeah, you go from hiding in the bathroom to pushing yourself onto the stage to then just being this person that everyone expects a lot of things From, and and you're still that same person. So yeah, still, that's,

Unknown: 28:23

I mean, that's the other thing that, like, when I talk to leaders, you know, if you have, first of all, if you have a mental illness that you've had for a while, like it may never go away, it may come back, you're not cured, you know. And if you have ADHD, you can manage it, but like you still have ADHD. And so I think also just reaching a level of acceptance and and really understanding for ourselves that we can then extend to other people in the form of empathy makes us really good leaders, too.

Cynthia Johnson: 28:58

I love that. I love that we're, uh, we're sort of nearing the end. But I want to give you a chance to to lay out the the big takeaways. What? What do you hope the readers will get from from your from your book, the anxious achiever?

Unknown: 29:16

I hope that, first of all, you understand that you know, anxiety is normal. Everyone feels anxious throughout our lives. Will feel good anxiety, right? Which is that sort of like appropriate, like, Yes, I'm going to go on stage. I feel anxious, but this is good feeling, and will feel really uncomfortable, sometimes debilitating anxiety and all in between. And that anxiety is not something to necessarily even be scared of. It's a human emotion, and it's really worth it to try to understand it, and especially like, how is it showing up for me at work, we bring so much to work. We bring our past, our present. And our future to work every single day, and everyone else does too. And so we can when we understand what's making us anxious and also how we're acting out that anxiety we are doing a favor for ourselves and for our colleagues, like we might stop micromanaging, we might stop being so controlling. We might stop being such perfectionists, and we might really figure out how both to tell anxiety to buzz off, and then sometimes even to use it when we need it, because it can also be really motivating. So the book is is practical. It has a lot of exercises and a lot of really great stories from leaders. So yeah, I would, I would love if people picked it up.

Cynthia Johnson: 30:41

I might actually just buy like for my team.

Unknown: 30:45

Please do

Cynthia Johnson: 30:48

calling anyone or all of you out, but please read this book. Thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you so much for being here and sharing your book with us. And you can find the book anywhere books are sold. Okay, that's great. We'll also be sharing notes from this conversation, as well as links to where you can purchase the book in the show notes. This is bestseller TV. I'm your host, Cynthia Johnson, and we will be back next week with another wonderful author. Thank you again. Maura Bye,