David Noble and Carol Kauffman, Co-Authors of "REAL-TIME LEADERSHIP" and Executive Coaches

🎥 Welcome to Best Seller TV! In this insightful episode, we have the pleasure of introducing you to two extraordinary individuals - David Noble and Carol Kauffman. They are not only accomplished executive coaches but also the co-authors of the groundbreaking book "REAL-TIME LEADERSHIP."

📚 David Noble and Carol Kauffman are recognized thought leaders in the field of leadership development and coaching. Join us for this enlightening interview as we explore the transformative principles and strategies outlined in "REAL-TIME LEADERSHIP."

🌟 In this engaging conversation, we'll delve into:

🔹 The inspiration behind "REAL-TIME LEADERSHIP" and its relevance in today's ever-evolving business landscape.
🔹 The core principles and practices of real-time leadership and how they can empower individuals and organizations.
🔹 Personal anecdotes and real-world examples of leaders who have successfully applied these principles.
🔹 The role of executive coaching in nurturing effective leadership and driving organizational growth.
🔹 Practical tips and advice for individuals aspiring to become real-time leaders.

David Noble and Carol Kauffman's book "REAL-TIME LEADERSHIP" offers a roadmap for leaders seeking to thrive in the fast-paced world of business. This interview is a must-watch for anyone interested in personal growth, leadership, and organizational excellence.

📖 Prepare to gain invaluable insights and discover the secrets to becoming a real-time leader. Don't forget to like this video, subscribe to Best Seller TV, and hit the notification bell to stay updated with our enlightening interviews and content.

📌 Get the book: https://amzn.to/45zuPAz

Join us for this enriching conversation as we delve into the world of real-time leadership and executive coaching. Thank you for being a part of the Best Seller TV community! 🚀

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Rhett Power and Cynthia Johnson, both accomplished authors, entrepreneurs, and speakers, co-host Best Seller TV, interviewing fellow authors about their nonfiction books. With their expertise and engaging style, they create insightful and captivating conversations. Rhett's dynamic charisma and Cynthia's thoughtful approach make for a winning combination beyond mere promotion, offering viewers a deep dive into authors' minds.

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Transcript

Unknown: 0:10

Hi. I'm Rhett power, and welcome to another episode of bestseller TV, my host, Cynthia Johnson, Hi, Cynthia, hi,

Cynthia Johnson: 0:18

Rhett, how are you good to be here.

Unknown: 0:20

Good to be back. Today is going to be fascinating. We've got two people that I've been dying to talk to since their new book came out, and it's their new book is called Real Time leadership. It's finding your winning moves when the stakes are high. It's David noble and Carol. Carol Kaufman. David is a top executive coach with more than 20 years of global experience as a top executive in advising CEOs and their teams and major investors on leadership and strategy. He has served as a senior advisor to lots of different companies. He's considered by thinkers 50 as one of the world's top coaches. Carol Kaufman is also known as an international coach. She is professor, assistant professor at Harvard Medical School, a visiting professor at Henley business school, and well known in the coaching business. She is an Marshall Goldsmith has named her the number one leadership coach. She's also ranked by thinkers 50 as one of the top coaches in the world. The resumes are long. I could go much longer, but the new book is fascinating, and welcome to the program, guys. Thank you. Good to be here. Thank you,

Cynthia Johnson: 1:37

Cynthia, yes. Thank you both. I'm hearing about your careers. One very specific question comes to mind is, what what made you want to become a coach as your career, you've done so many other things. At what point did coaching become the thing to do next?

Unknown: 1:59

David, why don't you take that one? Sure? Well, it actually just makes sense of an otherwise choppy narrative for me, because I was an executive for a long time, and I grew up in a in an organization that believed in creating general athletes for talent, so they would move you around every 18 months to two years into radically different jobs and see what stuck. So that gave me, like, a really great range of experience across businesses, functions, geographies and the like. And then I moved into strategy, and that helped me to have the bigger picture, generally speaking, for organizations, whether they're corporate or public sector. And so along through that thread, I've always led teams where I really cared about developing people, and I realized at some point that that's where I got most of my energy from. So I kind of pulled together that strategic lens the operating experience, and my love of frameworks, as Carol will know, around the leadership space and care for people to develop them. So it just made perfect sense that I'm a coach, and looking back like that was laying the foundation for being a coach all my life. So I have a more traditional background, I think, for a coach, although I did start out as a trainer of wild horses, actually aggressive horses. And somebody says, Oh, so now you work with aggressive men? Excellent. Yeah, so I started out as a clinical psychologist, and I specialized primarily in people with trauma histories, and often severe and multiple trauma histories. Then, as I worked with that group, now, the wonderful thing, as it were, about people who have suffered from trauma is there really is an unlimited potential and upside to truly recover, because it's from what happened to you, rather than sort of who you are and what happened as my trauma survivors, They also became peak performers. So in one session, I might be, you know, someone might be literally curled up in fetal position. And then at another point in time, in that same session, we'd be talking about the politics of managing her one woman show at the Museum of Fine Arts, or being a CEO, etc, etc. So then I wound up being more in peak performance. Then positive psychology emerged in 2000 and I became very involved in thought leadership, in that which then led to coaching. Now how I actually became a coach is that I won it. I went to a coaching workshop because I needed continuing education credits, because Harvard's very, very precise about that. And so it was a coaching workshop, and at the end, the guy was Ben Dean, mentor coach, who was hilarious in an understated way, just said, You've after five minutes, you see my entire emotional range. So for you to stay in the room, I. Um, someone here at the end of the day is going to win coach training, but you have to be here to claim it. And basically, I won coach training there, which was, which was great, and been doing it ever since. Okay, fascinating. So what led to you guys, the both of you collaborating on this book. I mean, what was, I mean, what, what sort of brought you together to the in the need to write this book, but was, what was sort of the driving force behind the motivation in that, in two, well, two things in sometime, in 2014 I got two emails in one day from people who didn't know each other, saying, you have to meet this guy, David noble, so it started out like that, sort of like a blind date from two Different sources the same day. And then what happened is I gave a keynote at a guns under partners meeting, which translated into beginning to do some coach training there. David and I developed a coach training program which went out to about three or 400 of their partners and consultants. And then by 2017 we were wondering, like, what are we doing? Some of these people we're working with are really getting, like, you know, better, they're really hitting the top of the game. The CEOs are in the succession, are becoming the CEOs. And I remember that whiteboard in New York, and we sort of went through frameworks. And here's the thing, a lot of the coaching coaches we know will say, I have this framework, or I have that framework. And David and I had, I think it was 104 frameworks. And so what we did and we iterated and used them. So what we did was we looked at them all, and David just started organizing them, because he's got that kind of mind. And the next thing we know, he eventually created an acronym for them, like a factor analysis. He put the all these clusters together and then turned them into the four aspects of the M, O, v, e model. So that's how it start, and then we sort of got stuck together. I think we also found and it was a little bit like Reese's Peanut Butter Cup, where chocolate meets peanut butter, that we're both working one client site, and we basically sat in together on a session with the CEO that Carol was coaching, and we found that our complimentary skills were were supercharging our individual capabilities. And that actually led to the book, because what the book does is, in the face of not just disruption, but sort of continuously escalating disruption, we wanted leaders to be able to more confidently step into external turmoil, but also internal turmoil in the organizations and internal in ourselves to do that. And the way we did that was we felt that it was important to unite two related but distinct streams of thoughts. So one is kind of the hard edge strategy, analytical, data oriented work. And another is a little bit more amorphous, some subjectivity, but around psychology, neuroscience, behavioral science and the like, and we actually pulled those things together, and we think that combination is what will take really great leaders to be extraordinary. Yeah, and I'm going to relinquish the and let Cynthia ask the next question, but I do want to dive into that coaching in a minute. But go ahead, Cynthia, sorry. I'm glad you mentioned it. Wanted me to ask you about that.

Cynthia Johnson: 8:59

Yeah. So, so the M O V E framework, is there a way to to define that even further, a little bit for for the audience, like, what does it really mean?

Unknown: 9:11

Sure, I'll go through the first part. So it's M O V E, I'll first say it, then describe a little bit, and then you can double or triple click wherever you want. So M is to be mindfully alert. O is to be an options generator. V is to validate your vantage point, and E is to engage and affect change. Now I'll do the little bit on the top. Our goal is to each one of these has a big silo under it multiple chapters, but at the end of the day, we have to change in no extra time. So these also, each one translates into a split second question you can ask yourself in real time. So M is to be mindfully alert. So we know mindful, mindful in terms of noticing what's around. You, inside you, etc, and then alert like an athlete in terms of what is happening. And we can talk about how we devolved evolve the concept of three dimensional leadership from that O is to be an options generator, which comes from a long history of research and positive psychology. And for those of you who have a subscription to HBr, if you go to the January, February issue, this year, we wrote an article they called the power of options, and that is, for any task you have, like four different possibilities of how to go forward. These then to validate your vantage point, because you never know really if you're right. And the enemy of leadership is ego. So V is how do you open up to validate your vantage point, and then E is how you engage with people and affect change. So that's the M, O, v, e, but you can use it in real time, in any order or just one little piece. Yeah, that sounds like a mouthful, and it is because we really wrote this book to be a reference guide that you can come back to over and over again. But when you look at the overall content, just think of M as shorthand for being really clear on your goals, the what O is being clear on the how V is checking your reality, and then E is kind of taking all that and supercharging it into being a leader at scale. So we can basically take any one of those elements might create a breakthrough, and the work that we do is just super, super practical. Well, that's the greatest compliment anyone can pay us if they say you guys are practical. So what we're doing, as Carol said, is giving stuff in no extra time, split second, questions that you can ask yourself, and you can also dive into the book for bigger shifts in leadership. What we're always looking for is the smallest possible shift in leadership that yields the biggest outcome. So that's kind of what our game is. I mean, is this a So the intent here, I think, if my, if I understand right, is this is actually something you can teach your management team, really, with this framework to to also, I mean, you want to be guided by your value as a company, but in a crisis, this sort of gives people a framework or in a decision, at a decision point as a manager, how do you teach this to your managers? Is there a way that you found that the that is useful, practical tactic? I mean, is there a way to once somebody reads this, how do you teach it, concept by concept? Typically, what we'll do is we'll set the stage one way or another and give someone so let's say you are Google and you want to buy us. Okay? One you can license our material. But what we can do is a we do, like a series of of workshops. You can have cohorts in between, David, a man named Doug Shu and I are are writing mostly dog Douglas, a workbook where you can literally work your way through all of the material. For example, David does this as well. I'm doing a keynote at a pharma company next week, so I'll start out with an hour long to begin the process. I'll start out with an hour long talk, then there'll be, say, an hour and a half workshop, and for the first 45 minutes, I'll say, Okay, let's look at the past. What's the situation that could have gone much better had you known this material? Okay, then the next part is, let's look into the future. What's an area you want to develop in yourself that would make your leadership go to the next level? So in that you can do that with each and every chapter in the book. And I think what first and foremost, you roll this out by role modeling it. So when you're at the top of the house, you start with that, and then, as Carol said, we can apply this to any kind of cohort of high potentials. And we can also apply it in the context of a leadership team where you're actually unpacking a problem that they need to solve. So is it something that's related to the team's alignment? Is it something around the way that they're taking decisions or implementing actions, or is it something around the health of the dynamics in terms of their trust and understanding of each other, their ability to navigate conflict, their ability to learn together? So we can, we can unpack that around real life issues which we find has the most impact. That makes sense, that makes a lot of sense, how much

Cynthia Johnson: 14:49

of this is, and then these, the decisions, the changes, these small moves, the teamwork. I mean, is it starting with people who have great insights? Links and then shifting them. Or Can this really be applied to anybody? Yes, yes, it can be applied to anybody. Okay,

Unknown: 15:09

let me give you a story. Yes, with your 16 year old, it can work with your CEO. So here's a quick story. I'm sure Carol's got some as well. But one very powerful thing, again, this is small shifts that create disproportionately positive outcomes that can be real game changers. So we have this concept in the book of real time leadership, that you have two parts to real time leadership. One is to be able to create space in between a stimulus that you've got, like something that's coming at you or that you have to deal with, and the way you respond to it, because if you just reflex, your playbook might be off if it's like a brand new type of crisis or a brand new type of opportunity. So creating that space and then being able to step into peak performance using that space with the model, one way that we create space is it's based on Dick Schwartz's work and internal family systems, and we borrowed from what Dick was talking about in terms of being able to know when you're in your best self, which would in turn make you your best leadership. So the shorthand for that is that we ask individuals by questions on a scale of one to 10. So first is, how calm Are you? Right now, at a 10, you're super chill. At one, you're frenzied and anxious. Second is, how curious are you? Are you really interested in learning about yourself, what others think? And learning 10 is yes, right on, one is like unfinished learning. Third one is clarity. So 10 is my thoughts are crystal clear. One is super fuzzy. Question four is, how courageous Are you? 10 is like super courageous. One is not so much. And the last one is, how compassionate Are you towards yourself and towards others? So an example of this is I had the first time meeting a CEO of a private equity portfolio company, and we had 15 minutes before we were going to go into a meeting of his executive team that he'd invited me to. And I said, let's just do this quick exercise before then. So I'm going to ask you on these five questions, scale of one to 10. How calm Are you? And he goes, 10. Okay, great. Scale of one to 10. How clear Are you 10? I'm always clear. Scale of one to 10. How curious are you 10? I'm a lifelong learner. Do I have to ask if you're courageous like 20? Okay. Last question, how compassionate Are you towards yourself and towards others right now? And he just was silent for about 10 seconds, which is a lifetime, considering how fast he answered the other questions. And then he said, I'm low on that. And okay, can you visualize or imagine a time when you were a 10 out of 10 in compassion. And he had a photo of his son on his desk, and he just looked at the photo, and he said, Yeah, I've got it. Let's go. So as we walked into the meeting, he was really peeved with me, like that was like another Woo, woo, stupid exercise. Like, I don't think this coaching experience is going to last. We sit down, and the CFO is announcing that he's leading the company for personal reasons, because his dad is at the end of his life, and he wants to look after him until the last day. And as he says that, he bursts into tears, and he's not consolable, and no one in that room knew what to do, and this time there was like a five second lag, which is long enough, and the CEO got up out of his chair, walked around, sat down next to him, put his arm around him, and said, it's going to be okay. We've got your back. We're there for you. That was a game changing moment. And when he left the meeting, the CEO left the meeting said, I never would have thought of that, and that was exactly the right thing to do. So that's one of those examples where just, you know, a regular person, and you might say a limited leader, in many respects, could really step into that and unlock something special just in a moment, in no extra time, and in that moment. Wow, yeah. And he wouldn't have done that unless you asked him that question just a few minutes before. Absolutely not wouldn't have been on his mind. Wouldn't have come to him at all and think about what isn't a natural thing for him, and think about an outcome that would have I mean, for the company, I'm sure that CFO stayed around after they probably gave him the leeway to go take care of his dad. That's right. Wow, they did the other thing, that's a partial answer, Cynthia, to your question, is one of the things so, so this model, it works really great at the top of the house. And by the way, for those of you who are our coaches, one the. Book is really great for coaching skeptics, people who would like almost vomit before they'd want to coach. And in our book, we do not make the case for coaching at all. It's just you parachute right in and you see if you like it or not. And it's lots and lots of stories and experiences we've had with very significant leaders, and the book opens up with this guy stepping off of his Gulfstream jet thinking he's the shoo in to become the next CEO, only to hit the wall fragment and our challenges. If he'd known the move model, would it have gone better? But then happily, he called us in, as did the chair of the non goth committee, and he was able to find he was able to use the Move model in order to reorient and win the day the next day. But what we didn't realize until the book was out of our little clutches was that it's also a parenting book. So a quick example for that one, and I'll kind of take you a little bit through the mov model, a bit so M is to be mindfully alert to the three dimensions of leadership. And the three dimensions of leadership are, what do I need to accomplish, like my goals, my numbers, whatever, make a decision, project, etc. Then who do I need to be, you know, as a human, in terms of my values, my purpose, my strengths. And then how do I need to relate? And that one is, you know, the Golden Rule, which is, treat others as you treat you would want to be treated, or treat others as they would want to be treated. Okay, so that worked with Matt the CEO, but now we'll go to Michael. When he was 11. My son and I come in at the end of the day, I am tired, and there's this ungodly mess on the dining room table, and he says, Mom, I'm done with my homework, and I go watch TV right now. Okay, so think of that first dimension of leadership. What do I need to accomplish? Well, your reflex, and the whole book is about making space to free yourself from your reflex. Is your reflex? Is it to get the damn homework on? Like, hello, what else? However, if you then say, well, what do I really need to accomplish and give yourself just a second of space? Because our brains work really fast, it's like, oh, actually. Is it about instilling a kind of discipline. Is it about a love of learning? Is it about not seeing your mother's head pop off because you see how mad she is? Okay? So that's the first dimension of leadership, right there. The second dimension of leadership, who did I want to be? Have I invested enough in my emotion regulation and my own capacities so that I am able to not react, okay, and not overreact. And then how do I need to relate? So for that one, the options generator, and I'll just do really those two. That is we have four sets of reflexes, fight, flight, freeze and befriend, which translate into what we call the four stances. Think of a tennis player, and you put your legs one way for a forehand, your legs another way for backhand, etc. And so we too, when anything is coming at us, what stance will work? And the four of them are, lean in and engage. Roll up your sleeves. Take action, you know, challenge yourself. Challenge others. Lean back, which is collect data. Let's be rational. Let's get the overview, you know. Do do due diligence. Then there's lean with, which is caring and nurturance and like, how are you or at scale as culture, you know? And then there's don't lean at all, which is when something's thrown at you, do you have the choice to not catch it? Can you not be triggered? So back to the dining room. Or, now imagine back to Matt in front of the board, okay, do I want to lean in and say to Michael, okay, Michael, you really need to get this homework done. Like, okay, let's work on it. Or, okay, Michael, let's, you know, think back to, you know, some inquiring questions. Or, like Michael, can I help you, you know, Han, or can I not lean at all? And very unusually, I was able to not lean at all. And when you're able to make the choice to active choice, to do nothing, which is the hardest of all, then ideas can pop into your head, you invite intuition, you invite sudden knowing, all kinds of things. And what popped into my head was the following question, which I asked Michael, which was Michael? I want you to ask yourself something. I want you to look at your homework, and if you are proud of your work. Go watch TV. And I left the room. So maybe he stayed for a little bit and did a little something. But I thought in that case, it was a very powerful point. So this can work. So imagine that now with a report who's screwing up, not just on but a report, you know, um. Your boss has screwed up in some way, but just you can really apply that to yourself, in parenting, in work with your partner, or at work, all right, we say it's top of the house or in your house. I love that. I mean, I got, I've got a freshman in college and a rising senior, so I that is a and I was having that discussion last night about exams. So if you are really great at working for your exams right now, like, what would that look like? Who would you want to be? What would you want to do? Like, what do you actually want your 10 out of 10? What do you want to achieve as part of your exams? And then they start to own it. I needed to have this conversation last week. That's the thing with parenting, I have

Cynthia Johnson: 25:53

had a similar experience with an employee who's hyper critical, but then gets kind of halfway on something and wants to run and and figured out, after working with them for years, to do exactly what you just said. But never had a framework of why that it worked. I just knew that it did again after years of like, trying everything else. And I'm curious, is it, is it a muscle, like, how, or is it just retraining yourself to All right, take a second, 123, or four.

Unknown: 26:25

Oh, it's a great question, and it really goes back to the whole theory of change that's a bit of an umbrella over this. So when you think about it, you know shorthand for creating a change is, first, you have to set an intention to change, whatever that is, and you have to be most motivated. You have to be motivated to do it. Because if you're not on a scale of one to 10, at a nine or a 10 out of 10 on change, it's just not going to happen, because there's so many different things coming at us. So first is to set that intention consciously. Then you need to activate that. So they're usually events to activate that. It might be before an important interaction. It might be something that's upcoming, you can anticipate or whatever, but you have to be able to then activate it. And the way you activate it is by just taking small, micro behavioral steps towards your goal. So you're outlining your vision that 10 out of 10, like, if I was great at patients, what would that look like? What would I be feeling? What would other people be feeling? What would people be saying about me? Where am I now on a scale of one to 10? Oh, I'm a six. Okay, what am I doing? Right? Then I'm not a five. So that all those positive strengths that you can leverage to build bike rehabs, that you can try to go from a six to 6.5 so you do that, and then you do it over and over again. And at some point in time, you're going to get beyond the intellectual and you're going to have a flash of like, Oh my gosh. This worked, right? That flash will give you the impetus to keep practicing it. We have. We work with a retired four star general, Chuck Jacoby, and he said, David and Carol, it's all about the reps in anything. And we believe that. So that's where the repetition comes in to actually embed it. Yeah, what do you guys mean by way? Power, okay, in in the field of positive psychology, there's now, like, dozens or hundreds of studies on this. It was a concept introduced by Rick Snyder early on in the first decade or so of positive psychology. And so there's willpower and weight power. Willpower is, you know, sort of grit, determination. I know I can do this. Now, imagine someone with a lot of grit and a lot of determination and, oh, let me see a fixed headset, okay, like there's one way to do things, and this is going to happen, and I see that brick wall, and I'm getting through that brick wall, and I'm going to throw myself against that brick wall, and I'm going to etc. Now, what they talked about was that in any situation you need. Sort of we talk the options, which is way power, which is, am I as good at that capacity to develop multiple ways forward as I am with sort of that grit and being able to accomplish something? And the research is just massive, and you can think of it as its automatic resilience training, is David will say, you know, in anything, you need to back up and then a backup to your backups. And so it's cognitive flexibility. And there was some another thing that happened after we our pause, couldn't get back on the book, is I learned about the work of Steven Hayes and something with a very complicated, ridiculous name, called something that enhanced evolutionary meta model. Meta models. What it really means is, what is it that helps you succeed? And the number one answer was psychological flexibility. So behavioral flexibility, so. Social flexibility, emotional flexibility, and to and to really, sort of bring this point home, it took 50 researchers three years to go through 56,000 research studies find the best of the best of the best to see between that stimulus and the person's capacity to respond, what allowed for success? And it was psychological flexibility. Wow. I think it also has to be those have to be viable pathways forward. They can't just be something that's just not attainable. And what we find is that most leaders, when they're trying to get to a goal, most everyone can find what they think is a winning path, or at least, at least one way forward. But the problem is, if you don't have multiple pathways, given all the kind of curveballs and obstacles that get thrown at us, you're much less likely to succeed. Example is, say you're just trying to get across a cliff, even if the cliff is only kind of three three feet apart, but it's 3000 feet deep, so if you've only got one way forward, like you can run really fast and jump really far, that's great, but you're probably not going to try it. So you might want to think of some other options, like, Oh, is there something on this side of the cliff? Can I have I got assets that I can help, maybe build a bridge, or can I connect to someone over on the other side of the cliff and get some help from them. So it's like creating those viable pathways forward that increase your chances of success. I understand that. That makes sense.

Cynthia Johnson: 31:32

Yeah, just the feedback loop is, I think, the hard part, right? So you need to take that moment and know who to ask all of those things. I'm guessing, is part of it, yeah,

Unknown: 31:41

what you want to do is increase your agility. So, you know, we tend, as leaders, to go back to our defaults, which is this whole thing about over relying on reflexes. So we wear a groove in one response, and all we're trying to do is at the very least, if you just think of one more possibility, that's the very least. So that's trying to get out of that group and expand, literally, expand your, your range of leadership. I mean, you can ask for that help, right? I mean, even ask, asking people to help you, think about absolutely, even ask yourself. I mean, so often, literally, if you just stop and say, Hey, what is the best thing for me to do right now? Or, hey, how? How is the best way to relate to Cynthia? Like, what would, you know? Would she like it for me to be really engaged or give her some space? You know? So imagine Rhett and Cynthia, for example. Rhett, you'll be the introvert. Cynthia will be the extrovert. Okay, so Rhett's Rhett's your boss. He's an introvert. You're in trouble. He thinks, Oh, wow. Cynthia, just needs some space. You think, Where the hell's my boss to help me? Okay, flip it, Cynthia, you're the boss. You're the extrovert that's having a hard time. And he's like, Oh no, he's having a time. Shirley wants a pep talk and for me to write there and encourage him. And it's exactly the wrong thing. So how do you kind of just stay attuned to what's around you. Notice it, you know, validate your vantage point for yourself, so that you can have a sense of how many doing the right thing. And literally, take that split second to ask yourself, Carol, do the do the sneer story? That's a great example of agility. Okay, yeah, sure. Um, so for So, for this one, imagine, okay, so now I'm imagining talking to you and and, okay, I'm gonna pick on you. Imagine that Rhett's on. His video is off, so he thinks, but as he's listening to me, he goes, right. Okay, so you get a sneer, okay, but now I'll imagine that you surround the table and I see you sneering leaning what would I do if I leaned in? I'd say, hey, Rhett, like, what's up? What didn't you like about that idea? Or if I'm more sophisticated, I'll go collect that. I think I'm going to talk to Rhett after the meeting. Or you snare and I'm, I'm I lean back and I'm like, Okay, I wonder what it is that's disturbing Rhett. You know, let me think through what he does, etc, etc. I might ask him a question, but you'll just fit into my rational grid. Okay, now if I lean with, let's say, and so each of these can be defaults. You can use each one too much. You can use each one not enough. The whole point is that cognitive and emotional and social flexibility. So if I'm leaning with I'm like, Oh no, I offended red. And then I might secretly adjust the entire rest of my presentation to make you feel better, or to make you like me, because that is so important to me, or I have the capacity to not lean at all, and your your sneer is, is data, okay? So it's not happy with this, okay? And I don't react physiologically. So that's just an example of in any. Situation, one answer isn't always the right one. So, for example, a lot of people think the right answer is being nice. Yeah, that's not necessarily the right answer. The right answer might be to lean in and go, excuse me, Rhett, what's going on. Or it could be, Rhett, you're not liking what's going on, but you're very authentic. If you're sharing with me this, it means other people in the room are and they shouldn't be making you be the spokesperson. So guys, let's just pause and get a read on the room, you know. So there's, there's, there's not. People often think that the lean back or lean with or whatever's the right thing to do. And we have to be careful if there's a lot of leadership fads out there, and one of them is, we should always be flat and we should always be nice. The point is, you need to respond in real time to what's really needed.

Cynthia Johnson: 35:58

What's funny is, as you said, those options I overwhelmingly would have chosen one of them, and if that makes sense, so Exactly, I can see how that that pause is necessary if you're in and also an awareness making like knowing they're there to change. Because otherwise, no, I would have never thought about how to react? There's definitely

Unknown: 36:23

I was thinking I had a default. I mean, for sure, exactly what my default was going to be on that my husband says when I go to my default, he'll go, hmm. Did I ask for help? Lean in lean with kind of girl, yeah, wow. That's, that's a lot to think about today. I do want to David, you mentioned the two in one thing that kind of happened to you coaching. It kind of happened to you by accident. And we're, we're out of time almost. And I hate that, because I could, we could go on. Can you briefly describe why you guys think that that's a almost a better approach to than one on one coaching? Because I think that's a really important point that I got out of the out of the reading and so, and it's, we don't have a lot of time to get into it. We could have a whole show just on that, probably. But I thought I thought I found that intriguing. Well, just very briefly, in my background as a strategist, I would work with CEOs, and I would never think of going into a room by myself to say to a CEO, I can help you with any problem that you've got or anything that you want to work on. So I would have a fleet of partners that I would bring with me that are specialists. So why should it be any different for coaching now, coaching has you have to have a very close and intimate and trusted relationship with people, but there's no reason why you can't scale it up a little bit. So when Carol and I are in a room, we're better together, first, because we have very complementary backgrounds and experiences and insights. Second, something is much less likely to escape us or stump us together than if we were alone. And quick example, Carol's working with first time CEO. He was deregulating. She was working on with him, on his behaviors with the team. And I just said, What are you trying to get done? And he said, I'm trying to reorganize the the enterprise around these dimensions for these reasons. I said, Great. So have you done this with the team, and this with the team, and this with the team? He goes like, one out of three. Okay, well, there's a starting point. So we got to do three out of three and work on your behaviors in parallel. And that really unlocks something special with them, and we just thought, this is Rhesus peanut butter cup. There's something here. And it is not the best approach. I would say it's a more exception. We, you know, if I'm going to be working with like, if all hell is breaking loose, and you've got a really complicated leader, and you've got a really complicated situation, and the stakes are high. It's who you're going to call last week, I was in Nash. I was in getting us confused. David was in Nashville. I was in LA. We got, you know, major smoke signals from this, this, these two leaders in the States, and we had to, like, jump in a plane from LA, from National Head to London, do three days intense work. So these guys didn't go to war with billions of dollars at stake, etc. That's 211, someone saying, I want to be a better listener and overcome my subject matter, experience still up and work on my identity. You don't need both of us for that, right? The other caveat is the two of you have to get along. Have to have gone through conflicts yourself, and cannot be an ego war like I think you could tell like now with David me, one of us wasn't trying to look smart on. Um, actually, I was, Did no one of us wasn't trying to look smarter than the other or better, um or claiming peanut butter. You have to really trust the other person, trust their competence, trust their complementarity, and trust whether, no matter how well you're getting along that day, that you fundamentally love each other and want the other person to succeed. If you don't have that, for God's sakes, don't try two on one coaching. Your client will smell it if you don't get along. One person actually was having lunch with us and just and said, Remember, MZ, he said, actually want to buy your relationship? Wow, I could see where it be overwhelming. Sometimes too maybe for somebody, yep, less expensive, yeah, I mean overwhelming in the sense that it's a it's a lot of almost too much stimulation or a little I can see the benefit. I can see the benefit of it too greatly if you have that dynamic that you're talking about. So it's, it's a fascinating conversation anyway, and I want to respect you guys's time. Hope you've enjoyed this two on one, or this two on two, yes,

Cynthia Johnson: 41:22

no. So

Unknown: 41:24

how do you guys, how do we find the book? Yeah, and how can people go out and get it today? Remember the title of the book, real time, leadership, right? Google it, and it will come up. Now. We also have our own website, and it was, it's technically real time Leadership institute.com, who can remember that? So real time leadership RTL, you can do that, or down below you see our names, Carol, Carol kaufman.com, davidnoble.org, to reach us directly, and we'll make sure to put a link there in the in the program. Oh, yeah, good. Thank you. Hopefully Amazon will still have copies there. They were nearly out, so 18,500 down, and a few more to go before we go to a second printing. That's a problem to have. Yes.

Cynthia Johnson: 42:20

Well, yes, thank you both for joining us, and we will be back next week on bestseller TV with another author or two. See you then you.