Interview with Ron Carucci. Author, "To Be Honest: Lead with the Power of Truth, Justice & Purpose"

🎙️ Welcome to Best Seller TV with Cynthia Johnson and Rhett Power! In this thought-provoking episode, we have the privilege of sitting down with Ron Carucci, a distinguished author, leadership expert, and the visionary behind the groundbreaking book "To Be Honest: Lead with the Power of Truth, Justice & Purpose."

📚 Ron Carucci is a recognized thought leader in the realm of leadership and organizational transformation. Join us as we delve into the profound insights and principles he shares in his book, "To Be Honest," and discover how they can redefine leadership and inspire purpose-driven action.

🌟 In this exclusive interview, we'll explore:

🔹 Ron Carucci's journey as a leadership expert and the experiences that inspired him to write "To Be Honest."
🔹 The core principles of truth, justice, and purpose and how they can reshape leadership in today's complex world.
🔹 Real-life examples of organizations and leaders who have successfully embraced these principles and reaped the rewards.
🔹 The challenges leaders face in integrating honesty, justice, and purpose into their decision-making and actions.
🔹 Practical advice and actionable steps for individuals aspiring to lead with authenticity and purpose.

Ron Carucci's book "To Be Honest" is a powerful guide for leaders seeking to make a positive impact on their teams and organizations. This interview is a must-watch for anyone interested in ethical leadership, personal growth, and organizational excellence.

📖 Prepare to be inspired and motivated to lead with honesty, justice, and purpose. Don't forget to hit the like button, subscribe, and click the notification bell to stay updated with our enlightening interviews and content on Best Seller TV.

📌 Connect with Ron Carucci and grab his book:
Amazon: https://amzn.to/45y0YZb

Join us on this enlightening journey as we explore the transformative power of truth, justice, and purpose in leadership. Thank you for being a part of the Best Seller TV community! 🚀

Rhett Power and Cynthia Johnson, both accomplished authors, entrepreneurs, and speakers, co-host Best Seller TV, interviewing fellow authors about their nonfiction books. With their expertise and engaging style, they create insightful and captivating conversations. Rhett's dynamic charisma and Cynthia's thoughtful approach make for a winning combination beyond mere promotion, offering viewers a deep dive into authors' minds.

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Transcript

Unknown: 0:10

Hi, I'm Rhett power, and welcome to another week with at best with bestseller TV. I'm like I said. I'm Rhett power. My esteemed co host is next

Cynthia Johnson: 0:20

to me. Hello. I'm Cynthia Johnson,

Unknown: 0:24

and we have got somebody that is a friend and someone I just always love talking to because of his insight and his wisdom. Ron Carucci, he's a 30 year track record of helping CEOs and executives tackle challenges of strategy, organization and leadership in 25 countries. He's helped over 100 country 100 companies, not countries. He is co founder and managing partner at the valence he serves on the advisory board of the ethical systems at New York University. Previously served as an associate professor of organizational behavior at Fordham University Graduate School and an adjunct at the Center for Creative Leadership. Ron is a sought after speaker and a good one at that you have to if you ever see him on the on the agenda for a talk, you got to sit and listen, because it is incredible. He is a contributor to the Harvard, Harvard Business Review Forbes. He's author of eight books, and we're going to talk about his latest today. To be honest, lead with the power of truth, justice and purpose and purpose. It's a winner of the New York City Big Book Award. Ron, thank you for being with us. Oh gosh, Rhett, I want to meet the guy who just introduced so. Kind of you. Thank you. It's a pleasure to be here. I'm always, always want to find time to talk to you. Likewise, likewise. So Cynthia, I know we were gonna we were battling to see who got to ask you one. So go for it.

Cynthia Johnson: 2:00

Sure. Yeah, I've always get most interested when I hear that an author has spent years researching the thing that they're writing about and correct me if wrong. But you put in 15 years of research, and to be honest, a book has identified four factors, basically, that have an impact on honesty, justice and like, purpose within an organization or company. What are those? What was that research like?

Unknown: 2:31

Well, it was. It didn't start out to be a book, so we interviewed more than 3200 people over the course of that so it's a longitudinal study of that data. And we we It started out to be So we did the same study at 10 years with the same data, and we thought, what else is in there? So we decided to go back and look, and we used AI. So we use a really cool AI tool that can do a lots of different forensic look at data and quantify qualitative data, and when some of the correlations came back, what they call drill sites, around correlating honesty and truth telling and things that could predict that, I thought, oh, that could be interesting. So we went back and dug lots of different wells in the data, and indeed found these four factors. So the goal was to publish the research. So we wrote up the four factors, published the research. It was invigorating, and we're done. But then people could come in and ask, Hey, could you run the Theranos case through your findings? Or could you run the college admission scandal through your findings? Which, of course, that's like, that's about as exciting as a prology exam. And so we did a couple, and it was just really depressing. And we thought, could we have found four findings of what predicts honesty that nobody's doing? Because that would suck. And so I thought, I now need to find out, like, did we create a set of conditions that nobody can live up to? So what? That's not helpful? And so we sort of reverse the look to say, Are there stories of executives out there, organizations out there, in fact, embodying these four principles, and they came out of the woodwork, like when you start looking in turn the kaleidoscope, that way, they're everywhere. And these heroes just kept showing up, both in the business world, but also in the not and then on the business world. And when I realized how incredible those stories were, that's when we decided to say, that's a book worth writing. And so to balance is a book of heroes. It's a book of leaders and organizations who I people I want as my boss, companies I'd be proud to call my employer, people who had left the path to say, Look, our world is stuck in a trust recession. You know, people are desperate to find out how they can trust people that they that have proven themselves. Otherwise, I'd be trustworthy. Who's setting the example for us? And that's, that's who they are. So the four things. We found one was, be who you say you are. You know, we all have mission, vision, purpose. We have statements that we make about ourselves. Turns out, if you don't, if the lived experience of those words don't match the actions you're three times for luckily that people lie to you. But so the interesting, the statistical models work both ways. So if, in fact, your actions and words do match your three time broken eye people be honest. But if, if all they are cosmetic words on the wall, what you've told people is it's okay to be duplicitous. Around here we say one thing into another, which people will be glad to follow that example and be self serving and do what they want to do what they want to do, no matter what you tell them. The second one was accountability, the word that makes us all wins and all of our orifices tighten. Turns out that when accountability is laced with justice and dignity, meaning it's fair, meaning, no matter who I am, however I show up here, I can be as successful as anybody else, and my work is treated with dignity even the prices. I fall short when that's the case, you're four times more likely to have people be honest. But if I'm just a cog in your wheel, if I know the system is rigged, if I know there are privileges and roles I don't have now, you're four times more likely to have me be honest, because for me to be successful here, I have to embellish my accomplishments and I have to hide my mistakes. The third was governance and how decisions get made. So if I walk into a room of people, commonly referred to as a meeting, and what's happening in that room is an honest exchange of ideas. People are debating different points. The person in the front of the room is presenting a balanced view of some problem or challenge or opportunity, and I if I want to offer a point of view that's different than the one prevailing in the one prevailing in the room, I feel free to do that. That's a transparent set of governance. Now you're three and a half times more likely to have you be honest. But if I walk into that room and I know it's just orchestrated theater, there's already a decision that's been made. Anybody's just nodding their heads. The person in the front of the room is trying to get everybody to nod their heads in a certain direction. And the last thing I think you want to hear from me is a point of view that difference than yours. Now you're three and a half times, but likely to have me lie because me to get the truth, I have to go on the ground to get it. And the last one was, which was probably one of the most surprising to us, was border wars, the cross functional world of organizations where supply chain meets operations, where sales meets marketing, and you have border wars, the scenes of the organization are where all of your competitive value gets created. So if at your scenes, there is cohesion, conflict can be resolved. People see themselves as part of a bigger story. I understand the value we create together. There's no reason they there's just we. When that's the case, you are six times more likely to happen, to be honest, because now I'm not worried about a single source of truth, but if I come to that border and it's yeah, it's we and they, now my goal is to make sure that people know that you're wrong and I'm right. When you fragment the organization, you fragment the truth. So now we have dueling truths. Now you're six times more likely to have people be dishonest, because I have to prove that I'm right and you're wrong. The interesting thing about the statistical models also is that they're cumulative. So if you're good at all four of those things, you are 16 times likely to have people be trustworthy honest. But if you suck at all four of those things, you are 16 times more likely to put yourself on the cover of a newspaper headline in a story you never wanted to be in. Wow, that's, I mean, so incredible, and it just you, I'm my head swing with lots of things that come from that. But I gotta ask you, know, you also, you put something on the website I was looking at yesterday, and it and it stuck, struck me about office politics, and that, like 50% of newly appointed executives don't trust their new peer set, And that's coming into the organization. Why is that so? So that data interesting comes from our 10 year study on power and people rising up to positions of influence and how they use that power or don't when. So think of it as organizational altitude sickness, right? You go up higher in an altitude and air thinner when I get up higher. People who used to be my bosses are now my peers. I have no I have no reason to be confident that my well being is in your interest. I You probably see me as a threat. There's going to be some form of organizational hazing that I'm going to have to go through before you accept me where now I'm now an extra competitor to whatever job you want, and in an environment that's already politically charged, where it's my hyper individuality that set me apart to get the job in the first place, and now that individuality is a liability. But if my peers don't know that, and they're still competing with me, now I have. A boss who has to figure out how to coalesce this choir of individualists. I'm I'm looking for the rules, right? How do I be successful here? And until I get a cue from you that you understand that my success is intricately tied to yours, I'm not going to trust you. Is that? Does that? Does that roll over though to and then these organizations that do this really well. Is it? Is it the same dynamic when you go into an organization that even does that? It is okay, yeah, because we've known for 50 for 20 years, that 50% of leaders who rise up in organizations fail in the first 15 months. Not a new statistic. It's, you know, recruiters love it because it's an annuity for them. But everybody else you do the carnage to careers, the carnage to families, the carnage to you know, it's terrible, and so organizations that have realized the investment in moving people along to broader levels of responsibility understand you have to put scaffolding around them to help them be successful. That it's it is no longer an automatic stick to landing, okay,

Cynthia Johnson: 11:06

this is a this is interesting, because when you put the definitions around it, it start you make sense. Because we've all seen it. We've all experienced some degree of this, like trust, losing and gaining over time. What I guess, is there a perfect scenario. Is there, like a perfect, like working condition, where everybody gets along, even if people are moving up and down? Or do these titles have to be removed? What's the

Unknown: 11:36

well, you know, I think, I mean, organizations have systems, right? They have governance. They have decision rights. They have cultures and those those environments systemically either reinforce or discourage certain behaviors. The great news about what we found in the Chivas research is that it isn't an all or nothing proposition, right? So take accountability. You can improve your just and fair accountability systems by 30% and get a 12% hit and honesty, right? So that they think about the continuum on a stereo of equalizer basin, treble, right? You can move these things along and get and get improvements. You don't have to be perfect, which is good, because most you know, imposition is going to have subcultures. They're going to have bad actors. They're gonna have people who do stupid things. Part of what we wanted to understand was, what are the systemic factors that taken otherwise, like 5000 people didn't wake up at Wells Fargo, oh one morning and say, Hey, here's an idea, right, right? That took 10 years to get people to go to the dark side. Those people started out as good hearted, caring people, who, if you had asked them 10 years earlier, do you think you'd ever participate in something like this? They go, No way. I'd never do that. Suddenly, the line keeps moving right. And so part of what we wanted to learn was, what are the conditions that take people to the dark side? And turns out, when you institutionalize duplicity, when you have cannibalistic accountability systems that make people feel like they're winning and cogs in your wheel and used when you have decisions that get made in mysterious ways, and when you have people who are rivals to get resources, turns out, you turn people into crooks and cheats and liars, but they don't all start that way. You mentioned some really big companies, Patagonia, Microsoft, and in the research. What's interesting about that to me is, you know, I can see in a smaller company, in a smaller organization, that this would be easier to do, that you could, you could change your culture quicker, and you could, you know, you could, you could change people and change the way you operate, but it seems to be in a big company like Patagonia or Microsoft that that's that's such a monumental task to create a culture like that, yeah? Like, how did, how did, how did that? Is that, yeah, was. I wanted to dispel the myth. I mean, so if you look at all the look at the B Corp population, right? People are going to go, Well, sure, they were all born that way, right? I wanted to dispel the myth that big companies couldn't do it. PepsiCo is one of our, you know, our examples in there as well. Sakti Nadella inherited an absolute mess. He inherited a Darwinian, horrifically toxic culture from bomber and I was, I've been in meetings when they were, they were a client of ours for years, where bomber was at the meeting and I saw what went on there. Saadia took his executive team away in their first few months of being a team, put them on couches and chairs, took away from a conference table, made them wear jeans, and they said, We need to flip the script here. I want you to tell me if Microsoft worked for you. How is Microsoft a platform for you to live out the reason you're on the planet? He knew that if he was going to connect 200 1000 employees everyday experience to a conviction about how they wanted to serve the world. He had to start with his team and his own personal compassion, his own vulnerability. He Kathleen Hogan, who's become a dear friend of mine. She's, you know, an interview in the book, you know, incredibly humble and compassionate woman. He appointed people that were going to embody the values he wanted, and they've been in. They've worked to change that culture dramatically. They would tell you the first time, they're not always there yet. But he was determined, and in seven years, his first seven years, got so much further than I think he ever thought he would. But you were hungry for that, though they were hungry. It was starved for it, because it had been this Darwinian Doggy Dog, you know, he, he said, I want we have to go from being a culture of, know, it alls to a culture of learner dolls, right? The growth mindset became their platform for how they were going to change. You know, they had. People were being punished. You should. You showed up with the rehearsal for the rehearsal for the rehearsal, with the deck for the rehearsal, the deck before, and you had piles of notes to every possible scenario, to every possible question that you might possibly be asked. And it was just, you know, institutionalized neuroticism. And he knew that he was killing people, and so he cleaned it all out and said, Don't, don't come with decks. Don't come with pages. Come with I don't know, but I'll find out. But don't perform for me. And you can imagine the first couple of years how to be just bloody, because the people, people for whom that old culture served well, who had been successful in that culture and had learned it, and for whom, who was in alignment to their values, right? We're certainly not going to lie down with a white flag when the good guy showed up. And so you had to imagine, and he wanted to give everybody a chance to succeed. And of course, they not everybody could, right? But you look at what they've done now and who they're becoming now, and it's just a stunning example of what happens when you have people at the top very committed to creating an environment where humans can thrive. Yeah, any other surprises? I mean that really, once you've got deep into what they're one of the things that surprised us was that honesty. So we looked at we looked at a ton of neuroscience. We talked a lot of brain scientists and looked at brain scans to understand how does this play out in our body, and between the social sciences and the neurosciences. Turns out, honesty is not a character trait. It's not a set of principles or values. It's not a values based experience in life. It's a muscle. It's actually a capability. You that You have to be good at it, and you have to be good at it. You have to work at it. It's also it's not just about telling the truth. What if you look at the neural pathways in our brain that connect to truth, justice and purpose, honesty means saying the right thing, doing the right thing, and saying and doing the right thing for the right reason, truth. This is a purpose. If you if you do just are candid, you might get labeled as candid or reliable, but to earn the moniker of honest, you have to do all three, and to be good at all three, it's a daily practice. You have to decide, every day, I'm going to work on honesty today this way, which is one of the, one of the roots of what makes people dishonest is the lies we tell ourselves. You know, so one of the things that Aisha and I have been working on, on designing the honest life you love, which is, what are the lies we told ourselves that we then have to go up that bleeding, and so you have to start with your own self deception. To be true to yourself, you have to be true about yourself. And to be honest, you have to be honest about the things that bring you to your dishonesty. So one of the examples I have leaders I do in workshops, I say there'll be this. Go back over your calendar for the last 10 days, and in the privacy of your own heart, pick out five or six moments where you know, if there was a video camera watching you, you would not want it to be used to train your children's children. Pick out five or six moments where you know you behaved in ways that would belie what you say you value. You a snide to the barista, you embellish data to your boss. You withheld feedback from somebody because you didn't want to deal with their defensive reaction. Whatever it was, pick it up. And if you examine those moments honestly, you will see a pattern. Those are those the moments that bring us to our dishonesty are not random. They're choices we make subconsciously, sometimes because they serve a purpose. We believe they'll engineer a certain reaction. We believe they'll make us look a certain way. We believe they'll make us feel safer around certain certain environments. We do them for reasons, and they become incredibly reflexive, and we don't think about them, and so they become our truth we have. We live in a world today that confuses speaking your truth with speaking the truth. They're not the same. Amen to that. And when we don't. Interrogate our truth, wakes up as if it's true often when it's not. And so to look at the places where we've told ourselves lies, I'm a certain I'm seen a certain way. I'm inadequate this way. If people knew this enough of me, they wouldn't love me. When you look at those deeper truths, you find the places where your own dishonesty makes you less trustworthy than you, than you think, wow, it's that. It's, it's, is it's, this is

Cynthia Johnson: 20:32

a random question. Is it something you can point out? Like, can you guide someone else to do that right? Like, like, if can you manage up and down and get people to do that?

Unknown: 20:44

I have, you know, the so Rhett and I have a common friend of mine in my Shea. And she and I had do workshops called design the honest life you love. And we have been shocked people. We had, the very first workshop we did had Mark Ryder was in it. A friend Mark Ryder was in it. 20 people all over the world, eight different countries from three continents, they've never met before, and suddenly they're in breakout rooms. And we questions we ask are, what's the lie you've told yourself that has is holding you back? And I mean, I think we, our world has become so isolated. I mean, the surgeon general just declared it, isolation is a pandemic, right? The things that they disclose, that they find out about themselves, the things they dig up childhood traumas and certain ways they believe people don't see them, I mean, just levels of, frankly, heartache and to say, what if that narrative got restricted? What if it said something different? What if you believe something else about yourself? What would that look like? And just giving people permission to sort of let go of the lies that have the ghosts that have haunted them for so long and think about something different, watching this happen in six hours. You know, I should have, like, blown away. So Cynthia, I have leaders do this exercise all the time, and when they go over their calendars, you see these red faces come up, like, oh, oh. And then I ask, and if you show that list to your spouse, what would they tell you?

Cynthia Johnson: 22:16

Here's a couple things. It would

Unknown: 22:18

certainly have things to add, and they would probably say, this is not new news to me. I've had a front row seat to this performance for a long time. I'd love for you to change it. I love you, but I want you to change it.

Cynthia Johnson: 22:33

I love you in spite of it, and not because of it.

Unknown: 22:38

Probably comes Cynthia. It's a really smart question, about because the problem becomes for a leader to face into the leader has built an entire life around these lies. So I've built, if I built my life and my leadership around a lie that says, for a decision to be good, I have to make it. And suddenly I realize, oh, that's gotten me in a trouble before I should be more empowering. I have built a team of yes men around me who will tell me what I want to hear and don't want to make a decision because they're afraid of me. They're not going to suddenly become empowered overnight when I say no, I'm going to I've decided. I've had a I've had an epiphany here. I'm going to delegate. They're not going to go, yay. They're going to go, why? Mm, hmm. Why would I want to do that? Yeah, you. You've trained to not be accountable for decisions by relying on you to make them all. And I can bitch about that all day long, about how micromanagy and disempowering and in my weeds you are, but I like it there, if I'm honest, and suddenly having to be exposed to say, Wait, you want me to make choices now and then, have to stand up behind them and be accountable for them, because suddenly you decided to be honest with yourself, didn't sign up for that. Didn't sign up

Cynthia Johnson: 23:46

for that. I went through this, I feel like, with someone, and they were like, Stop hugging all of your responsibilities so tightly. You got to let go. And I and what you're talking about is, and I know like that, the trust piece, how? And we kind of touched on this at the beginning of the interview. How do you trust people who have shown you? You know, maybe someone's worked for you for 567, years and three years ago, they they weren't someone you could trust to do something, but now they might be. Can you retrain yourself to see them differently? Or, you know,

Unknown: 24:19

what's it's a great question. Stephanie, you have to be honest with yourself about why did, why did you what? What made you chose to not trust them, and to really distinguish between, is it that you withdraw and trust so there's distrust there, or something you don't trust them enough, because the trust is a currency, right? I trade in trust based on your character, or maybe it's your personality, maybe it's your competence, maybe it's how much I think you're like me. There's all kinds of reasons I trade and trust different than yours. If I don't know what currency you're trading in, I may try to earn your trust in a way that you don't give it. So I have to decide is the amount? Much of trust between us commensurate with what our what our relationship requires. So there's a lot of complexity and a lot of risk in our relationship requires a lot of trust. It may just be that there's not enough trust there, or it may be, I think you're a liar and a cheat and I've withdrawn trust from you because I don't trust your motives. But I may be wrong, and so I have to interrogate. Is it that you're about you might be at my mother, and it's just a big transference party here, and you trigger me, this actually happened with a client of mine. I was the third coach in a line of executive coaches behind an executive they were trying to say, but you know, he was just a he was a harsh man and and he treated his team. He was just harsh. Some of it was cultural, because he was not American born. And I thought, well, what? Why would you third coach and just fire him like, why would you do that? Did my daddy collection, did my bad diagnosis. And there was one particular woman on the team he was more mean to than anybody else, which I thought, okay, that's weird. Why would you randomly pick her? And he had hired her to be his successor, and she had her own issues. She was not blameless in this, but it was just weird that she brought out worse behavior than him than others. And so I said, Why do you treat her differently. He said, No, I don't like I've kind of watched you do. He didn't. He hadn't even seen it. I found out. So I asked him about other women in his life. I wanted to understand his relationship with his mother, relationship with his wife, sisters. I wanted to understand who, who is she in the story? Because it's totally not her, right? Turns out, five months earlier, he'd been divorced. I said, Tell me about your ex wife. Did not mean didn't want to go there, anger, yeah, just he became the dark. He became a very angry, dark man in that conversation. And but what he was describing about, what he couldn't stand about her. Was this woman, all the behaviors she displayed, they were actually very effective behaviors. Some of them were not some of them were a little bit whiny and maybe a little needy, whatever, because he made her insecure, and so her insecurities just triggered his ex wife, right? Because we had this little loop going here, and I don't know how two other coaches missed that, it was kind of obvious. I said you need to really step back here and understand who she's triggering on you, and understand that you're predisposed to treat her badly because of that. He never saw it, right? So was she untrustworthy? No. Or some of her behaviors ineffective, sure, but we had a whole other story going on here that had nothing to do with her at all. You know, interrogate those stories, interrogate those behaviors. You don't find them. Let me ask you the question, because we're talking about the internal workings of an organization and how that plays out, and how that's how that comes. But what's really interesting to me is, I, it seems, and I don't know the numbers on this, and maybe you have have looked at this, is there an extra, is there a an ROI of this? In other words, is there a payoff for Patagonia? Is there a payoff for PepsiCo? Is there a payoff for Microsoft in the market. I mean, is it, does it come back? You know, we so we, I wanted to handle that right in the front of the book, because I thought, I, you know, if this becomes a mushy, touchy feely, whatever thing people turns out, the more honest companies, the companies that behave with integrity, the book, companies that commit to their purposes and actually living out the companies that do these four things well outperform their competitors in every metric you care about. Brand loyalty, stock price growth by factors of 100 on the S, p5, 100. Customer Loyalty, margin, product margin. EBITDA, return on capital. We looked at every possible metric and compared scores of companies to one another, to their non behaving that way, peers. And this wasn't. These weren't like close margins, right? These were like by by leaving them in the dust. Margins, okay? Every factor you care about that you want to measure performance by financially or otherwise, the the more honest companies dramatically outperform, there are less honest peers. Why? Like, I mean, where is the customer? Does the customer see it? Is it because the employees are more engaged? What's What's the call? You're gonna get more innovation. You're gonna get better service. You're gonna have better ideas. You're going to retain better talent. You're going to be more courageous in the marketplace. You're going to you're going to be more honest about what customers you shouldn't be serving, and you're going to say no in your strategy to the right things, not going to be trying to be all things to all people. And you're going to be honest about where you suck and when something goes wrong. You're going to address. And fix it so you're going to have the best talent doing the best work, driving the most innovative solutions to the customers who most want. Plus consumers have said, I will. I will be brand loyal to until I find a reason to defect. If you, if you if you lie to me, if you say one thing and do another, if you treat the environment poorly, if you make a product that I can trust, I will bail on you in a minute, even if I've been with you for 10 years. Yeah. So the so consumers are working with their feet anyway. Custom, if it's B to B, your customers are saying, I don't need to be loyal to you, because there's someone across the street doing the same thing, right? So, you know, it's, I mean, the level of performance you get from those four factors is huge. And so why wouldn't you want to be handling beats me, Beats me. But there are lots of companies out there who aren't

Cynthia Johnson: 30:59

I this conversation deserves another, like, another 30 minute, maybe more three days. I don't know I so we have to, we definitely have to end with, like, how do people work with you? Because I feel like this is something you can accidentally fall into. I feel like it every time you change a role or a position or a seat in the room, you're you can easily identify with the position and not with the truth. If that like, that's how I'm kind of seeing well intended people end up here. But, yeah,

Unknown: 31:32

it's such a good point. Cynthia, well intended people don't even if they they're on a slippery slope. They don't even know they're on. We have an assessment tool. So if people go to to be honest net, we have a tool that can help you assess how honest is my team. We also have there we videoed all of the heroes, so all the interviews I did that I knew I wouldn't be able to use the material. We created a TV a news magazine, TV show called moments of truth. And so there's a 15 episode you can binge watch well, you get to meet all the heroes and hear the backstage stories that they told me so Uber Jolie and rob a lot, the lawyer that took down Dupont, Amy Edmondson, Jonathan height. So there's a cast of characters that will inspire you. You can binge watch all 15 episodes in a weekend there. So that's certainly a place to start to look at your own journey. Come hang out. You know@navalin.com, our website is full of videos and tools and free ebooks and all kinds of stuff to get you thinking about your own leadership and how you and we put those in the link at the show and during the show. One quick question, are you working on anything new? What's any new projects? Or you can you ask that I'm I'm toying with the idea. So I just finished a TEDx talk on building trust in a polarized world. How it is in a place where we're all we all start angry. We all start assuming I'm right and you're wrong. We all start assuming you you know your values are bad and mine are good. How do you how do we show up in that world? Because none of us like it, we'd all say, this sucks. It's terrible. You know, we're not that different. Blah, blah, blah, but somehow we keep gorging on the diet of fragmentation and isolation and, you know, hatred, right? And I have started looking at the what is the relationship between how I don't trust myself and how I decide not to trust you? You know, how are the lies I tell myself make me show up in a way that makes me not trust you? I think there's a there, there. And I'm so I'm digging. I'm sort of, sort of playing with the notion of, you know, how do I be true? If we all say, want to be true to ourselves, want to be authentic, yeah, all the words, and yet, you can't be true to yourself if you're not going to be true about yourself. And so how do we do that better? Because I think there's, I look at the vitriol, pick the line, political, religious, you know, socio economic, race, pick whatever the line is. And the vitriol seems to be around me deflecting my crap and one of the point of yours and a made up version of yours at that, yeah. And I feel like if I were to sort of look in a mirror differently and I saw myself differently, that would lead me to see you differently too.

Cynthia Johnson: 34:33

Feel like I'm obsessed with you, and I don't know if that's my like, why? Maybe you remind me. Like, now I have to, like, read all this, but I think you are onto something, and if you're looking for people to study, maybe, I'm sure we can find a few who are out there seeking the truth about themselves. So I may be snow, yeah.

Unknown: 34:53

Thank you, Ron. Oh, thank you very much. My pleasure. It's always good to be with you. Brett, take us out. Cynthia. Yes,

Cynthia Johnson: 35:00

thank you. Thank you again. Ron, thanks again. Rhett, I'm Cynthia Johnson, this is Brett power, and we are best seller TV. We'll be back next week. Thank you so much. You.