A Deep Dive Interview with Dr. Mark Goulston, Author, "Just Listen" & "How to Talk to Crazy"

🎙️ Get ready for a riveting conversation on  Best Seller TV with Cynthia Johnson and Rhett Power - as we dive deep into the world of communication, empathy, and understanding with the renowned author, Dr. Mark Goulston. With two transformative books under his belt, "Just Listen" and "How to Talk to Crazy," Dr. Goulston is a leading expert on the art of effective communication and human connection.

📚 Dr. Mark Goulston's work has touched the lives of countless individuals, from leaders and professionals to those seeking better ways to connect with others. In this exclusive interview, we explore the profound insights and strategies presented in his books, delving into the heart of compassionate communication.

🌟 In this enlightening conversation, we'll discuss:

🔹 Dr. Goulston's motivation and journey behind writing "Just Listen" and "How to Talk to Crazy People."
🔹 The essential principles of active listening, empathy, and rapport-building, as detailed in "Just Listen."
🔹 The unique challenges and scenarios covered in "How to Talk to Crazy People" and how these insights can benefit us in our daily lives.
🔹 Real-life stories of transformation and breakthroughs resulting from Dr. Goulston's approach to communication.
🔹 Practical tips and guidance for improving our ability to connect with others and navigate challenging conversations.

Dr. Mark Goulston's books have the power to revolutionize the way we communicate and relate to one another. This interview is a must-watch for anyone seeking to enhance their communication skills, build deeper connections, and foster understanding.

📖 Prepare to gain invaluable insights into the art of listening and communicating effectively. Don't forget to like this video, subscribe to Best Seller TV and hit the notification bell to stay updated with our transformative interviews and engaging content.

📌 Connect with Dr. Mark Goulston:
Website: https://markgoulston.com
Just Listen Book: https://amzn.to/3LZ0rbG
How to Talk to Crazy: https://amzn.to/3Mq6LJJ

Join us for this enlightening conversation as we unravel the secrets to more meaningful and impactful communication. Thank you for being a part of the Best Seller TV community! 🚀

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Rhett Power and Cynthia Johnson, both accomplished authors, entrepreneurs, and speakers, co-host Best Seller TV, interviewing fellow authors about their nonfiction books. With their expertise and engaging style, they create insightful and captivating conversations. Rhett's dynamic charisma and Cynthia's thoughtful approach make for a winning combination beyond mere promotion, offering viewers a deep dive into authors' minds.

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Transcript

Unknown: 0:00

Matt, Hello, welcome to another episode of bestseller TV. I'm Rhett power, one of your hosts, and my co host is

Cynthia Johnson: 0:18

Cynthia Johnson,

Unknown: 0:20

good to see you, Cynthia, good to be back.

Cynthia Johnson: 0:23

Yes, I'm thrilled to be here today, because this author holds a special place in my heart and on my my bookshelf. So today, we are speaking with Dr Mark Goulston, who is co founder of deep Coaching Institute, a division of on global leadership serving founders and executives who are high potential, who have tried everything and feel stuck because there's something inside of them holding them back. He is also an international keynote speaker, helping audiences to do the same, originally, a UCLA Professor of Psychiatry for over 25 years, and a former FBI and police hostage negotiation trainer. He is author or co author of nine books translated into 42 languages, and his book just listen has been translated into 28 languages and has become the top book on listening in the world. He is the host of the highly rated podcast, my wake up call, and the co host of hurt less live more on UK health radio. Welcome mark to the show.

Unknown: 1:29

That's a lot to live up to me.

Cynthia Johnson: 1:35

So as you do so much and and one of the best things that you do is listen well, which I think is sounds so simple, but it's clearly helped you to achieve many, many goals. Very, very excited to dive in and Rhett, I know, I know you have the first question, so I'll sit back and just listen

Unknown: 1:56

well, you know, I know Mark as well, and this I value every time we get the chat mark. And I just have to say, of all the things that you've done and the people that that you, that you work with, I have to say, and I think I said this last time we talked, of all the people that I know, I think you're one of the most special, and I'll tell you why, because you actually do work that save lives. Now we all try. I know Cynthia and I and you, we try to improve lives, we try to help people be better, but you've actually helped save people's lives, and I think that you're just a remarkable human being. And so we're here to talk about a book, but we could talk about your work, and I think that's just, you're just this, this person that I admire. So thank you for being with us. Thank you both. Wow. I we are here to talk about, just listen. I wanted to talk about what inspired you to write it. Is it the lack of listening that we have? Is that? Is that that, is that what inspired you, what inspired that it's exactly that, it's the lack of listening, it's the talking over people like stories. I have a funny story. Now this story didn't inspire me, but, you know, hopefully get a chuckle out of either you and it's actually a true story, as opposed to some of the stories I tell. So I was walking to my office years ago, and I passed these two drunken surfer dudes, bare chested, and they were mowing their lawns next to each other and bantering with each other. And one of them yells out to me as I'm walking past them. He said, harky, stop. Pray. Tell us the secret to peace on earth for ye to pass. And then he goes back to bantering with his friend. And what little, little do they know that I'm pretty quick on my feet training hostage negotiators. And I get in front of the second one, and I said, I look at them. I say, Harkey. And they look at me, what I said, I have the answer. They said, the answer to what I said. You asked me, What is the answer to peace on earth for ye to pass? And I have it. And they both looked at each other, and looked at me, and I said, the secret to peace on earth is to listen more than you talk. And they looked at each other, shrugged their shoulders, and then they said, ye may pass. Nice, nice. Well played. Well played,

Cynthia Johnson: 4:43

definitely. And your attention to detail, maybe because you also listen and watch when you tell stories, it's always fantastic, because I can picture those two standing there and doing that mark. I What's interesting about the book, just listen. It for me is, I've been offered it so many times from friends and colleagues, not knowing that I know you so clearly I had a problem listening in my past life, maybe current life. What? What are the insights from the book that you think are most, most the standout is like the most useful for someone starting at the bottom of their listening journey.

Unknown: 5:24

Well, here's I always answer slightly tangentially, so you have to rein me in listening is something that most people need to do a better job of, but they don't want. Sometimes, on my podcast, I'll ask people, so what is something you could get even better at? And 70% of them say, Oh, I could be a better listener. But clearly people don't want to be. So here's a lesson on how to make something that's soft compelling, and you can apply it if you're listening or viewing you can apply it to what you're trying to promote in the world. So when I gave presentations on listening, I would say I'd like you to imagine someone in your mind's eye who thinks the world of you, believes in you, supports you, and imagine asking that person what would be the positive impact on my success, my happiness in our relationship, if I became a better listener, small, moderate, large. And most people will say, Oh, they'd say moderate. And here's the pincer question. I like pincer questions. That Gotcha. I'd say, Okay, keep thinking about that person now ask them what has already been the negative impact on my success, my happiness in our relationship, when I have been at my absolute worst as a listener, when I've interrupted people I've talked down to people I've changed the subject. I was sarcastic, small, moderate or large, and they all kind of look down, and they say large because they're getting flashbacks of when they were at their worst. As a listener, in fact, something I'm going to give away now, and it's not a book. It's a tip to make your life better. Soon to be on Tiktok. I have no idea how I'm going to do that, but I'm going to do it so. But here's what it's going to be on Tiktok has to do with listening. And it would be, what if there was a way to go back and reboot the loving feeling you had towards your spouse when you first met and fell in love. And what if there was a way to get that back? Well, here's the simple way. It's three questions. You might find them a little daunting. The first question is, you go to your spouse and say, Have I ever made you feel like I don't respect you or like you? They're going to go, what? Which is a yes, yeah, and then, and they may get nervous, because this is pretty intimate. The second question is, take me to the moment when it hurting so much that you didn't feel respected or liked me turned into resentment and anger. They're going to share that, and no matter what they say, You don't take issue with it, and they may look away because you're re injecting tenderness and intimacy in a relationship where that's kind of gone by the wayside, and you say, Look at me. I did that. I did that on more occasions than I want to admit to, and you deserve better. I'm going to fix it, and I'm sorry. Now, when I've said that to entrepreneurial groups, they all get nervous. Oh, I could never do that. I could never do that. You know, it's because every day that's how you make people you love feel, but, but, but hopefully that'll be sort of helpful. And then what you want to do is you want to listen into people's eyes. So I'm a great believer in that, and just listen is all filled with those kinds of things. Because if you listen into people's eyes, and you listen for hurt and fear before it became distrust and anger. It's always there, and you can and and I was a suicide prevention specialist, and none of my patients died by suicide, because the questions I would lead with is, I have a way of. Looking into their eyes and saying what hurts most at its worst, what's that like? Take me to a moment when it hurts so much that you didn't think you'd get through it, and what happens is when people can start to talk from that place, they start to feel relief, and sometimes they will cry, and you didn't make them cry, you let them cry. And so just listen is kind of an introduction to what I'm talking about. And leave a you know, hit a nerve with some of you, or it won't, uh, I'll give you something else because you mentioned saving lives. A friend of mine who Cynthia knows is a fellow named Jason Reed. His son killed himself, uh, five years ago. He has a wonderful documentary called What I wish my parents knew. And when we do presentations to parents groups and we show this documentary, I offer four prompts to parents, if you want to break through to your teenager, so that you can hear what's going on, and then listen to them. And when I make these presentations to parents groups, and if you're a parent of a teen or you're worried about one of your children, there are, I think, five words to write down, complain, blame, excuses threats, moody. Complain. Blame excuses threats, moody. That's what teenagers live. That's how they communicate, and they trigger their parents. And so most teenagers don't open up to their parents because they don't see their parents being empathic, and that's because they have trained their parents to be reactive. So when parents watch this video, they see the pain underneath all those things that they do that trigger you. And there's four prompts that you might want to do with someone you're worried about, and then you're going to listen. You're going to listen as if their life depended on it, and yours too. And the four prompts. And you do this while you're driving or doing an errand, and you say to your child, a lot of parents are worried about their kids, and I'm one of them. Can I ask you four things? And again, when you're driving, it's not that eye to eye, heart to heart talk the teenagers can't stand that's nails on a chalkboard. You don't want to go there. And the four prompts are, what's the worst you've ever felt about your life or yourself? And they'll tell you when you felt that, how alone did you feel? And again, you don't want to just check a box. You want them to tell you more, and they'll tell you. And the third prompt is take me to the last time you felt that, and something magical happens in listening and this, you can then apply to business. You can apply to your life. You can apply to anything. Is when you get another person to describe something so clearly that you can see it with your eyes. They re feel it. So when was the last time you felt that 230 in the morning? A couple nights ago. We heard you walking around in your room. Yeah, yeah. What was that about? I couldn't get to sleep, and I had a test. What was that about? I couldn't get to sleep. What'd you do next? I started walking, I felt like kicking the wall, punching the wall, whoa, what'd you do next? I started looking for cough medicine. Couldn't find it. Couldn't find your sleeping pills. You do a very good job of hiding them. Then what happened? I couldn't get back to sleep. But then the sun rose, and then the fourth prompt, and if you're fortunate, you will have earned the right to eye contact. And if you're driving, you pull over to the side of the road and you look at them, and you say, I have a favor to ask you. It's more than a favor, but we'll keep it as a favor. The next time you're feeling that or even heading in that direction, I want you to do whatever it takes to get my undivided attention, or your dad's undivided attention, or your mom's undivided attention, because we're real busy. You. Get a million things in our mind, but there is nothing more important to either of us than you feeling less alone when you feel that awful. So will you do that? And another thing, you are not a burden. You are a worry, but you're not a burden, and my proof of that is one day in the future, you're going to have a kid like you, and if they open up to you like I want you to open up to me. It's not a burden, it's a gift. Yeah, so would you do that? So I know we got a little off on a tangent, but you know, you gave me a long leash. I ran with it. No, I absolutely not that was that was that hit home in a lot of ways, in many ways, where did you go back to early in your career and you as an adult growing up, why did listening become such a powerful force in your life? I mean, it drove the career that you decided to go into. It, it did. It's been a hallmark of your life. Well, where did, where did you acquire that skill? Because most of us like to talk. We like to hear the sound of our own voices. We we like to give opinions. We like to give but you've, you've, you listen. And I so, where did that come from? Well, it's interesting, because I recently was speaking to people that I come from total abundance. I never, I never asked for anything. I don't really need for anything. I mean, it's okay to make a living, you know, take care of your family. But I didn't always come from abundance. In fact, I was very sarcastic and cynical and witty and biting and funny, and you couldn't get close to me, because I would just carve you up verbally. And then I went to med school. Dropped out once because I was confused and a tad depressed, took a year off, came back for six months, and then I got more than a tad depressed, and the med school wanted to kick me out because I met with the head of the school, don't remember him, and he sent a letter to the Dean of Students, who cares about students more than funding and and he called me in because the head of the school knew they wanted to kick me out, and they didn't want me to do something destructive, and so I I'm there with the Dean of Students, and he and he says, Read this letter, and the letter said, I've met with Mr. Goulston. This is from the head of the school. We talked about alternate careers, and I'm advising the promotions committee that he be asked to withdraw, which is a euphemism for kicking me out. I was still sort of passing, and I'm not really religious. And I said, What does this mean? And he said, You've been kicked out. And it was like a gunshot wound. And I know what that's like. I had a perforated cold, and I almost died. I just folded over, and I felt something wet on my cheek, and I thought I was bleeding. I mean, I just kept looking at my hands, and it was tears. And then he hit me with the trifecta of hope, and it flipped the switch in me from cynic scarcity to abundance. So I came from kind of a, you know, you know, a critical childhood. My parents did the best they could, but my dad could be a little bit critical, and he was depression age, and so you're only worth what you can do. If you can't do anything, you're not worth much, which is what I felt so, so I bottomed out when I felt like I was bleeding. And this was the trifecta of hope. He said, Mark, you didn't mess up because you're passing everything, but you are messed up. But if you get unmessed up, I think this school would be glad they gave you a second chance. And here was the first leg of the trifecta of hope. So imagine you come from that background where you're only worth something if you can do something, and you don't feel like you can do anything. And he said, but even if you don't get unmessed up, even if you don't become a doctor, even if you don't do anything the rest of your life, I'd be proud to know you. It's unconditional love. The second leg. Was, I'd be proud to know you, because you have something in you that the world needs more than you know, and you won't know it till you're 35 so he saw a future for me that I didn't see. That was the second leg. And then he looked at me, and he pointed his finger at me, and he said, Look at me. And I'm just sobbing now. I'm just sobbing. I'm draining the abscess of hopelessness as he's talking to me, and he says, You look at me. And he says, You deserve to be on this planet, and you have to make it to your 35 and you're going to let me help you. If he had said, Call me if I can help I had a lot of, you know, foolish, sarcastic pride. I probably wouldn't have called them, and I probably wouldn't be here. So that flipped a switch inside me, and it was weird for someone, I still have trouble asking for help, but when he said that, they pointed his finger at me, I lifted my left hand towards him, and I said, I think I'd like that. And then he stood up for me against the medical school, and basically he said, we're giving him a second chance. He's got something that all of our all of our medical students need. So I took a year off. I went to a place called meningers. Cynthia won't remember this, but Rhett will. It was during the oil embargo in the early 1970s and I'm driving from Boston to Topeka, Kansas, and I'm the only car on the George Washington Bridge. It was a weird time, and I'm driving to Topeka Kansas, and literally, I'm thinking, I'm either going to find myself or they'll just lock me up. I was going to work at the Menninger foundation at Topeka State Hospital. And I didn't grow up in a rural area, and I just spent time interacting with schizophrenic, you know, farm hands and and I guess I had something, I connected with them. I connected with them. I remember I asked one of the psychiatrists there, I said, Is this legitimate? You know, this is not like medical school. And they said, No, it's legitimate and you're good. It's something I hadn't heard for years. Wow, so that so I know that's a long winded answer, and I'm sorry for that, but no, no, not at all. And so I finished med school, went on to UCLA, was mentored by one of the top five pioneers in suicide prevention, who is to suicide prevention, what Marshall Goldsmith is to executive coaching, and he just started referring me suicidal patients, and I just paid it forward. I saw something in them. And here's something else I want to share with you and your listeners, and it's a recent evolution of just listen. Whenever you're with people, one on one, one on five, one on 500 they're always listening for something. Underneath. They're listening to you. Listening to you is transactionalist thing, and you know, and you do an exchange. But if you know that they're always listening for something underneath, they're listening to you, something I talk about in just listen is Be a pal, which is, if you can be a purposeful, agendaless listener, purposeful, agendaless listener, in which you drop your agenda and your purpose is to just drill down as deeply as you can and find out what most matters to them, and do everything in your power to make it happen. It's there. It's just, it's just there for the asking and for the listening. It'll change your life. It'll save the world.

Cynthia Johnson: 24:35

Yeah, I, I know again, I know you and so that story is new, is new and very useful. And I feel, though, that there's another story that represents listening in a way that that I that in a similar way, that when I hear the story is what I feel about your book. So I. Of It's a time when you weren't listening, which to a patient, and then in a hospital, I think, is how it started and and the outcome of that. Would you mind telling that? That story? Do you know what, which one I'm talking about?

Unknown: 25:15

Yeah. So I hope we have a little time for this. Hopefully we will. So I tell stories. Cynthia seems to like them. I feel badly for her, for them. And the three stories are listening into someone's mind, listening into someone's eyes, and listening into someone's soul, so listening into someone's mind. This was just at about the time when I was about to just before I dropped out, I was on round as a medical student in the Boston VA hospital, and all the doctors and residents and medical students, they're all posturing and bantering with their knowledge, and I'm just there feeling stupid, and we're Outside mr.. Jones room, and they're all posturing. He needs this. He needs that. And I didn't know what to say, and a nurse came over and said, didn't you hear Mr. Jones jump from the roof, and he's in the morgue, and as clearly as I'm hearing your voice, as I heard a voice say to me, maybe mr.. Jones needed something else. I think that was maybe when I decided I was going to be a psychiatrist, it hadn't crystallized. The next story is what I call listening into someone's eyes. I was called upon to do a consultation on someone who was in restraints, and I had to okay those restraints on his arms and legs and and an anti psychotic medication, because he was upstairs at UCLA, and he was pulling at his IVs. He was pulling at the respirator tube in his throat so he couldn't speak, and he was just, you know, totally, I don't know, he was just in misery in the bed. And I went in there, and his eyes were like saucers, and he couldn't speak. And I said, What is it? And and he went, Ah, I said, What is it? And he couldn't communicate. And then I put a pencil in his hand. I said, write it down. But his hands were all strapped down, and it was scribbling, and what the other doctors had said, he's just psychotic. And I said, Look, we had to put your arms and legs down because you were pulling at everything, and I'm giving you something to calm you down. When you calm down, we'll take everything off. So a day and a half later, they page me, and they said, Mr. Smith is off the off the respirator. He's sitting up in bed. He's off the restraints, and he told us to page you. I go into his room. He grabs onto my eyes like I'm grabbing onto your eyes. See I can take your eyes wherever I want right now. And he said, pull up a chair, and he sat me with his eyes, and he wouldn't let go of my eyes. And he said, what I was trying to tell you is that a piece of the respirator had broken off and was stuck in my throat. And you do know that I will kill myself before that happens again? Do you understand me? And my eyes just teared up, and I said, I understand? Sorry. Then the third story is what I call listening into someone's soul. I had been referred this patient who had made three suicide attempts and had been in the hospital multiple times before I saw her, and I didn't think I was making any progress with her. I saw her for seeing her for about six months. That was the long she'd gone without a suicide attempt or hospitalization. But I didn't think I was making any progress, but she would come in, she would make eye contact, and we talk a little bit, but I didn't think much was happening. And I used to moonlight, which meant I would cover for doctors once a month at a Metropolitan State Hospital in Norwalk, California, and sometimes you're up 24 hours and you don't sleep. So there I am on a Monday with a person I'll call Nancy, and she's not looking at me. So if you're me, this is Nancy. And as I'm there, sleep deprived, all the color in the room turned to black and white, and I'm looking out at the room is black and white, and I'm chilled to the bone, and I thought I was having a stroke or a seizure. So I'm a medical doctor. I did a neurologic exam on myself. I'm going like this, and I'm going like this, and I'm going like this to see if I'm seeing double. And I thought I'm not. Having a stroke or seizure. Then I had this crazy idea that I was somehow looking at the world, feeling her feelings, and I leaned in, and I started to freeze. I went into the dark night of the soul. And then I said to her, Nancy I didn't know was so bad, and I can't help you kill yourself, but if you do, I will still think well of you, I'll miss you, and maybe I'll understand why you had to to get out of the pain. And that was the first time she looked at me, and she said, she held onto my eyes for life. And she said, if you can understand why I might have to kill myself to get out of the pain, maybe I won't eat too. And then I reached into her eyes and I said, I'll tell you what we're going to do, because I didn't want to let go of them. I said, I'm not going to give you any treatments unless you request them, because you've had every treatment. And some work, some don't. Would that be okay? And then she looked at me and said, Uh huh. And then I looked into her eyes, and I leaned in, I said, what I'm going to do instead is I'm going to find you wherever you are, and I'm going to keep you company there, and I'm going to hold on to your hurt with you, so you don't have to hold on to it by yourself. Would that be okay? And then her eyes teared up, and she smiled, and she started to heal from the inside out. And I've recently, in the last several years, given that a name, it's called surgical empathy, something that people don't realize that when people become suicidal, they form a psychological adhesion, not an attachment. They form a psychological adhesion to death to take the pain away. And anyone who's been suicidal more than a few times, they tuck it in their back pocket, and they don't bring it up because they don't want to scare you, but they know if worse comes, the worse I'm going to check out. And so when people feel felt by you, not just understood, they may let go of death to take the pain away and grab on to feeling felt by you in the dark night of the soul, and they may start to cry, and they may start to get a little better. What allowed you to get to that space that in that moment, I think what had happened is I internalized what the dean of students did. I internalized it so it informs how I look out at the world, but at that moment, you think, with her, at that moment, that's what that was, or was that. No, I think I was sleep deprived. And my less romanticizing colleagues would say, Oh, you just had a dissociative episode. We have a diagnosis for that, you know, and I and I and I told my I tell my colleagues I have a diet, I have a diagnosis. For all of you, but you don't want to hear here's an interesting thing. Over the years, researchers in depression and suicide would send me their kids because I had this pretty good track record. And I'd say, Do you have any interest in knowing what I do or how I do it? Maybe we can help other people to do it. They said, if it's not evidence based, we can't look at it. If you don't have a control group, we can't look at it. And I said, Why are you sending me your kid? And they'd say, because we don't have your track record worried about my kid, and then I'd say, Send me your kid. So I never scaled it. And at this stage of my life, and the time I have left, which is still going to be a long time, but not as long as I plan, I got to get this stuff out there. And then, you know, maybe, you know, I got to get it out there.

Cynthia Johnson: 34:25

Mark every time, every single time I talk to you, you're gonna, and you're actually, you're getting better at it. You're getting better at getting tears, you know. And I just want to say thank you so much for showing up and doing what you do best is you didn't sell your book at all. You sold the ideas inside of it in a way that is unlike any other author, probably in the world. So we appreciate you so much. And if, before you go, if you could just tell the audience where they can find. And you more about you in the book.

Unknown: 35:01

Well, you can go to amazon.com you can see all my books there. My LinkedIn profile is a moving target, but it's getting better and more aligned with actually, what the heck I do? I have a website. Mark goulston.com, please check out the podcast, my wake up call. And it's interesting, I'm doing hurt less, live more, for UK health radio, because our listening audience is generally hard working women, 25 to 45 and what I discovered, and HarperCollins said, Oh, you write a book, you're on a radio program. And I say, No, your leadership. And I don't care about that. What I care about is I want to lessen the hurt in this audience, because people run away from hurt and fear into destructive coping mechanisms. And so when people can get their hurt heard it helps it to heal. Well, the book is just listen. We will have another episode of bestseller TV for you next week. Thank you for being with us and mark as always, man, powerful, powerful. Thank you. Thank you. You.